Potion of beneficial mutation

[dpeg]

Interesting idea. Non-trivial use even if you would restrict to good good mutations. I like it.

Regarding potions of Gain Foo, I think they would be a lot more interesting if they increased the relevant stat by more than one. While +1 Str might be nothing to write home about, if there's a good chance to get +3 Str and sometimes even +5 Str, it could be interesting for some purposes.

Caveat: I do the potion id game differently than most (this almost surely means that I do it worse). And I have no idea what the impacts of new potions is on the reasonable potion id scheme.

[eeviac]

eh, stats are boring, whether it's 1 point or 3. I'm very much in favor of adding this new potion and axing gain foo.

Though I'd rather have it give 1d2 or 1d3 'good' muts, instead of just 1.

[TwilightPhoenix]

Would Zin still be okay with this potion? I'd assume not, but worth mentioning since he's currently okay with Gain X.

[danharaj]

If you put these at the end of Cigotuvi's Wizlab I would actually consider doing it.

[njvack]

Would Zin still be okay with this potion? I'd assume not, but worth mentioning since he's currently okay with Gain X.

Huh, I'd think Zin should hate both.

[Arkhan]

While I don't think he's opposed to you gaining a little muscle mass or getting a bit smarter, I think he should get irked if you suddenly sprouted horns and started breathing fire.

(But then again, people would just save the potions until right before the switch to Zin anyway.)

[sardonica]

And I have no idea what the impacts of new potions is on the reasonable potion id scheme.

I don't think this change would affect potion identification much, beyond having two fewer potion types to identify. It wouldn't be nearly as valuable as speed, or as hazardous as random mutation.

Identification is, however, the entire reason why rMut is an issue - if someone quaffs an unidentified potion while wearing rMut, do we assume they want to avoid all mutations, or only completely random ones?

Wouldn't the expected behavior be for the rMut amulet to resist the mutation no matter the source?

[BlackSheep]

I think since rMut doesn't resist gain stat potions, it shouldn't resist this (unless the intention is to slightly nerf the new potion).
In addition to the reasons proposed above, I support this idea because people seem to really enjoy getting random, positive mutations.

[rebthor]

eh, stats are boring, whether it's 1 point or 3. I'm very much in favor of adding this new potion and axing gain foo.

Though I'd rather have it give 1d2 or 1d3 'good' muts, instead of just 1.

If you go that route, why not just have it give evolution mutation?

[BlackSheep]

I think the ability to get a guaranteed "positive" mutation is powerful enough.

[XuaXua]

I think the ability to get a guaranteed "positive" mutation is powerful enough.

And likely evolution would be an option in the roulette.

[Kate]

I don't see any reason why the good mutations wouldn't be resisted by rMut. Just because gain stat potions currently have some weird exceptions doesn't mean a potential replacement should too.

I'm not sure it would change my behaviour of just avoiding mutations entirely in most games, since it's easy to do so and avoid all the related risks (double-edged mutations as minmay mentioned, and making it harder to successfully remove the occasional bad mutations when they do occur). Still, definitely sounds more interesting than gain stat potions.

[mageykun]

Personally, I'm of the mind that rMut should resist all changes to yourself. Including stat gain potions, beneficial mutation potions, and cure mutation potions (Zin's capstone mutation clearing excepted).

[absolutego]

It doesn't resist gain stat potions, though.

the halfling intrinsic does, though, for whatever reason.
i guess gain foo bypasses the amulet because it can just be unequipped, and is spoilery the same way you'd read-id scrolls one at a time with the rest some squares away in case you drew immolation when it could burn your scrolls. this proposal actually gets rid of the discrepancy, because the mutations are not always beneficial and so rmut should just work on them.

it's good and i second it.

[BlackSheep]

i guess gain foo bypasses the amulet because it can just be unequipped, and is spoilery

This is why I don't think rMut amulets should interact with this potion.

[absolutego]

the mutations are not always beneficial and so rmut should just work on them.

that's why i do

[BlackSheep]

I don't understand your assertion, though. The mutations are beneficial, hence the name. They may come with drawbacks, but that doesn't mean they aren't beneficial.

[absolutego]

because the drawbacks may outweigh the benefits. are we seriously arguing about this?
as i see it it's mostly an interface issue (what happens if you want to quaff one and you forget the amulet's on).

[Deimos]

Depends on your definition of beneficial. Losing a helmet slot to small horns is not beneficial to you in reality, since you are giving away a great benefit for a mediocre benefit, but I suppose horns are technically a benefit in some odd situations that probably will never come into play.

[Kate]

The problem is more unidentified ones, but since I guess they are not anywhere near strictly good, it's okay to have people swapping amulets before quaff-IDing (there are cases both where you would and would not want the potion to have its effect). For this reason and consistency with the existing potion of mutation, I'd say they should respect rMut.

minmay explained it best, yeah. Maybe a different name would also help get the idea across, but "potion of (probably) not strictly bad mutation" doesn't quite roll off the tongue and I don't have any better suggestions.

[galehar]

potion of mutagenic doping

I like the idea. Would be a reason to add more of those double edged mutations which are the most interesting. I agree that gain foo are boring. How about also changing gain stat mutations to +2/+4/+6 or +3/+5/+7?
I also think they should be resistible with rMut.

[eeviac]

The trouble with changing the gain stat mutations comes when your Fe/DE/Sp gets a few levels of -3 Str each. Mutations that simply change your stats aren't interesting because it (almost) never matters that you gained X stat, but losing your strength in such a dramatic way can be devastating.

The difference between 7 and 13 Str is negligible - the difference between 7 and 1 is massive.

[evilmike]

I think a potion of benefitial mutation sounds interesting.

It's worth pointing out, a "potion of evolution" patch was uploaded to mantis some time ago. I like the "potion of good mutation" better though, since I think it's better if it has an immediate effect.

[Arkhan]

Maybe a different name would also help get the idea across, but "potion of (probably) not strictly bad mutation" doesn't quite roll off the tongue and I don't have any better suggestions.

Amiable Alteration
Merciful Metamorphosis
"Refinement"

[Deimos]

Potion of Adaptation?

[A spy]

What about Potion of Augmentation ?

[BlackSheep]

What about Potion of Augmentation ?

I like this one, or stealing the name from the Potion of Evolution.

[mageykun]

Potion of Beneficence

[nicolae]

Potion of Self-Improvement

[dpeg]

I am a bit worried that good players like MarvinPA will go for a mutation free game anyway. The goal is not to make mutations the solution to everything but to have a wider range than "shun mutations at all costs; if you have sufficient !cMut, perhaps try !Mut before the Zot battle".

A potion of good mutations (by the way, the potion name should include the word "mutation" in my opinion) would certainly be a step in the right direction. I would also bring a potion of remove bad mutation to the table (could also be a replacement for the current !cMut).

Finally, regarding stats: It's not worth discussing that mutations are cooler than stats. However, we happen to have those three stats and I believe they can be meaningful... one issue is that the scale is a bit too fine. Or in other words, one point in a stat does not matter enough. (This also affects the stat choice every third level.) The conceptual solution would be stat := stat/2. Regardless of that, the potions of Gain Foo would be interesting (not as cool as mutation) if they allowed you to jump at "cast spell X hungerless right now" or "can use armour Y immediately".

[XuaXua]

A potion of good mutations (by the way, the potion name should include the word "mutation" in my opinion) would certainly be a step in the right direction. I would also bring a potion of remove bad mutation to the table (could also be a replacement for the current !cMut).

Not a fan. Sometimes you want to get rid of those horns that prevent you from wearing the +2 randart helmet of rF++ rc++ rElec

[dtsund]

I am a bit worried that good players like MarvinPA will go for a mutation free game anyway. The goal is not to make mutations the solution to everything but to have a wider range than "shun mutations at all costs; if you have sufficient !cMut, perhaps try !Mut before the Zot battle".

A potion of good mutations (by the way, the potion name should include the word "mutation" in my opinion) would certainly be a step in the right direction. I would also bring a potion of remove bad mutation to the table (could also be a replacement for the current !cMut).

Finally, regarding stats: It's not worth discussing that mutations are cooler than stats. However, we happen to have those three stats and I believe they can be meaningful... one issue is that the scale is a bit too fine. Or in other words, one point in a stat does not matter enough. (This also affects the stat choice every third level.) The conceptual solution would be stat := stat/2. Regardless of that, the potions of Gain Foo would be interesting (not as cool as mutation) if they allowed you to jump at "cast spell X hungerless right now" or "can use armour Y immediately".

I agree with everything in this post except for the Potion of Remove Bad Mutation. I'd consider it more interesting if Cure Mutation simply wiped all mutations clean, so most players have to decide if, say, getting rid of Blurry Vision warranted losing Teleport Control and Fire Resistance. Losing bad mutations specifically is fine as a Jiyva ability, though.

Actually, I think what I'd really like would be for the Potion of Mutation to grant only good mutations, while making both negative mutagenic effects and Potions of Cure Mutation more common. Accumulation of negative mutations would eventually necessitate occasional use of Cure Mutation for nearly all characters, with the Potion of Mutation making your game somewhat easier until the next time you have to drink one. You could drink an early Mutation to make the early game easier in the knowledge that whatever boost it provides would be long gone by the endgame, or you could save it for later and accept greater difficulty now in exchange for an easier game later.

[pubby]

If there was a potion of mutation weighted towards gaining good mutations and removing bad ones then it would be possible to get rid of potion of cure mutation entirely.

[sardonica]

Please don't add things in which cause mutation to become much more common; boots and helmets popping off is really annoying.

[absolutego]

I am a bit worried that good players like MarvinPA will go for a mutation free game anyway. The goal is not to make mutations the solution to everything but to have a wider range than "shun mutations at all costs; if you have sufficient !cMut, perhaps try !Mut before the Zot battle".

A potion of good mutations (by the way, the potion name should include the word "mutation" in my opinion) would certainly be a step in the right direction. I would also bring a potion of remove bad mutation to the table (could also be a replacement for the current !cMut).

you could combine them. "minmay's pot" could grant one or more beneficial mutations, with a chance to remove bad mutations if they exist. it would make them more likely to be used (i think i'd probably do as marvinpa suggested and ignore them otherwise).
i don't know about removing !cMut. i'd try this first and see how it plays out.

[dd]

How about randart pots that each would give one or several specific mutations? When id:d, they would let you know which specific mutations they give. Un-id:d, you'd only know they were randart pots.

[Galefury]

Urgh. Randart pots.
Also, double urgh at this specific idea for randart pots.

dtsund's idea sounds pretty interesting. Sardonica's worries could be alleviated by making level 1 of all body slot mutations let you wear equipment in the slot, but doing so suppresses the mutation effect. Hooves and claws 1 already works like this I think. Most other mutations could be reflavored: horns 1 = hardened bumpy forehead. Talons 1 = sharp toenails. Etc. This way your equipment wouldn't immediately pop off when you get mutated.

[sardonica]

one wierd thing about Cure Mut potions that always bothers me - every other "good" potion has 100 percent positive results (heal, cure, +foo, etc) even Invis which doesn't add glow like a spell would.

whereas Cure Mut can definately have a bad result (removing a beneficial mutation)

[njvack]

This makes !cmut a more interesting potion by far than the purely-good potions.

[Kate]

even Invis which doesn't add glow like a spell would.

Uh, yes it does (as do potions of speed of course).

[cerebovssquire]

@sardonica, njvack: Not that you're wrong, but there is still an interesting decision attached to quaff/don't quaff of potions like heal wounds, might, resistance: "should I save this for later?" I don't think complicating this would be a good idea (I'm not sure if either of you is implying this though).

[sardonica]

I was wrong about the glow thing, but the point stands that all good potions are 95% good and the Mut potions can be good OR bad, it is counter-intuitive.

[XuaXua]

There should be a 1% chance of a mutation (or cure mutation, mwah ha ha) potion completely reversing all mutations.

3 Horns? Now you have 3 Antenna!
3 Claw? Now you have 3 Toenail!
Slow Healing 2? Now you have Regeneration 2!
Clarity? Berserkitis!
Teleportitis? Blink on demand.
10% Robust? 10% weak.

- - -

This could also be a Xom effect.

[Wahaha]

What if potions of Cure Mut were weighted in favor of removing bad mutations more than good ones? Maybe 66% bad 33% good.
Edit: To clarify, since currently the optimal strategy is to avoid mutations, the purpose of this change is to encourage players to try mutating in various ways. For those who wish to avoid mutations entirely, this change does practically nothing since they only have a few mutations to remove with CMut and it usually removes all of them. Now if a character is heavily mutated CMut offers more positive results than it currently does. This would indeed be a buff to CMut but it is a buff to a currently suboptimal strategy of getting heavily mutated, while leaving a mutationless strategy unaffected. Perhaps this might make drinking potions of mutation or the potion of beneficial mutation more attractive. Of course I might be missing something. It is also a buff to CMut when a character doesn't find an amulet of rMut, I'm not sure if this is good or bad.

[KoboldLord]

Cure mutation is already one of the most highly sought after potions. It does not need a buff. If your mutation set is favorable, you aren't forced to quaff it.