Potion of beneficial mutation

[adozu]

"you quaff the bright green potion"

"a glowing green spider jumps out and bites you!"

"...you feel very weird"

[galehar]

I have repaint the bikeshed.

[mrbobbyg]

Just drank my first 2 pots of vicissitude. +1 Int and antennae later, I'm very, very happy!

Thank you for the change, much fun!

[BlackSheep]

I found my first on D:2 and got... 'Your muscles feel loose.'

[XuaXua]

at least you didn't get stiff muscles!

That's a pill, not a potion.

[onton]

at least you didn't get stiff muscles!

nor did an emperor lich jump out of the bottle, it sure could be worse

[BlackSheep]

Can you not generate the new potion in wizmode yet? I was trying last night but couldn't get the old name nor new name to work.

[galehar]

Can you not generate the new potion in wizmode yet? I was trying last night but couldn't get the old name nor new name to work.

Worked for me

[BlackSheep]

Must have had a brain cramp then. I'll try again later.

[Fergy]

I personally like "Potion of Favorable Mutation". It means nearly the same thing as beneficial, but does not imply that it will always be beneficial.

Other ideas:
Potions of Foo Mutation are semi-identified:

• Potions of Random Mutation are always emulsified.
• Potions of Favorable/Unfavorable/Cure Mutations are always sedimented.

Potions of Foo Mutations can become other mutation potions.

• After 2000 turns, Potions of Random Mutations will become Favorable (40% chance), Unfavorable (50% chance), or Cure (10% chance). This will ID random mutations, but not which potion it turned into.
• After 500 turns, Potions of Favorable / Cure Mutations will revert back into random mutations. This will ID potions of Random Mutation, but not Favorable / Cure. (The potion then can randomly become another type of mutation potion after another 2000 turns.)
• Potions of Unfavorable Mutations will never morph into something else.

[adozu]

no other potion in the game does that except blood (which is pretty much vampire-chunks), doesn't really feel consistent with the rest.

[Fergy]

no other potion in the game does that except blood (which is pretty much vampire-chunks), doesn't really feel consistent with the rest.

The idea does three main things:

• It creates a use it or lose it tension.
• It gives another reason not to use a potion of favorable mutation (for the possibility of it turning into a potion of cure mutation).
• It increases the frequency of cure mutation, but without letting them become stocked.

[BountyHunterSAx]

I don't like the idea much. It removes the ability to hang onto cure mutation pots - which I find to be important to stock against future need. If I knew they were as likely as not to just shuffle back into bad mutation pots, I'd just use them...it's a no brainer. To break it down:

Right now, seeing cure mutation makes you answer the quesiton: "are my mutations bad enough I need to use this NOW, or can i continue to deal with statrot 2, and save it just in case of blurry vision".
With these changes it merely makes you drink it if you have mutations and if you don't, well too bad - it'll probably be gone by the time you want/need it.

Right now, seeing a mutation pot makes you answer the question: 3 50-50 shots at good/bad mutations (roughly) - do i want it, or don't i?
With these changes you have a new choice. Either: 1.) Do the 50-50 by drinking it now. or 2.) Wait, and have the game friggin' TELL you whether it'll be all good or all bad. In short, it removes the risk-reward aspect of it. There is a third option (cure mutation), but it'll either re-shuffle or be the no-brainer "use it, you have mutations after all".

-AHMAD

[Pereza0]

One thing, probably not a good idea, because it might be a little too powerful (maybe make them rarer).

Could the mutations created by these potions become permanent? Like an intrinsic characteristic of your character? (Sort like Gain XXX used to do)

Obviously, it has the disadvantage of complicating the mutation system with yet another type of mutation, not intuitive. And there are some beneficial mutations might not consider beneficial at all (reduced LOS)

[brendan]

One thing, probably not a good idea, because it might be a little too powerful (maybe make them rarer).

They occur as frequently as all of Gain Strength, Gain Dex, Gain Int. Even though the new potion is more powerful, I kept the frequency unchanged to make it simpler to test. I agree that we should reduce this, perhaps by a third. To provide a counter point: How many of you have actually been to the Wastes within the abyss?

Could the mutations created by these potions become permanent? Like an intrinsic characteristic of your character? (Sort like Gain XXX used to do)

These potions are already more powerful than Gain Foo. I don't see a reason to make them more powerful.

Obviously, it has the disadvantage of complicating the mutation system with yet another type of mutation, not intuitive. And there are some beneficial mutations might not consider beneficial at all (reduced LOS)

There are some +1/-1 stat mutations. These are largely boring. The specific example you mention, Nightstalker, is a demonspawn mutation and will never be conferred by this potion.

[evilmike]

Could the mutations created by these potions become permanent? Like an intrinsic characteristic of your character? (Sort like Gain XXX used to do)

This potions gave you +stat mutations. They were not permanent.

[njvack]

How many of you have actually been to the Wastes within the abyss?

I know this is getting OT, but: how would we know?

[brendan]

How many of you have actually been to the Wastes within the abyss?

I know this is getting OT, but: how would we know?

It's about 95% empty. The terrain churns rapidly generating a lot of clouds.
I think about 1/10,000th (or maybe 100,000th) of the abyss is Wastes.
You'll know it if you see it.

[nicolae]

How many of you have actually been to the Wastes within the abyss?

I know this is getting OT, but: how would we know?

It's about 95% empty. The terrain churns rapidly generating a lot of clouds.
I think about 1/10,000th (or maybe 100,000th) of the abyss is Wastes.
You'll know it if you see it.

Why is it such a small part of the Abyss?

[rchandra]

How many of you have actually been to the Wastes within the abyss?

It's about 95% empty. The terrain churns rapidly generating a lot of clouds.
I think about 1/10,000th (or maybe 100,000th) of the abyss is Wastes.
You'll know it if you see it.

I have, I'm pretty sure. Like most of the abyss, I walked away quickly.

[BlackSheep]

I found my first on D:2 and got... 'Your muscles feel loose.'

Just found my second! This time I got... 'Your muscles feel sore.'

[Sandman25]

I found my first on D:2 and got... 'Your muscles feel loose.'

Just found my second! This time I got... 'Your muscles feel sore.'

Perhaps we need third category for mutations other than good and bad...

[Sar]

Maybe it's better to remove or rework "boring' mutations instead?

[BlackSheep]

Potion of "meh" mutation.

[rebthor]

Potion of mehtation.

FTFY

[dpeg]

It's still much better than the old Gain Foo potions, because now there is pleasant anticipation. And just like scrolls acquirement, potions of beneficial mutation help players to become better human beings by getting a big dose of realism instead.

We hear complaints about sore/loose muscles (Blacksheep: Crawl is trying to tell you to work out!) but where's the fan thread about robustness? That's what I got last time.

[BlackSheep]

It's still much better than the old Gain Foo potions, because now there is pleasant anticipation. And just like scrolls acquirement, potions of beneficial mutation help players to become better human beings by getting a big dose of realism instead.

We hear complaints about sore/loose muscles (Blacksheep: Crawl is trying to tell you to work out!) but where's the fan thread about robustness? That's what I got last time.

I'm not bashing the new idea, really, just cursing my poor luck. I was excited about the opportunity to try it out, but let down by what I got. Twice.

And I'd take robustness over sore/loose muscles any day since both of the mutations I got were strictly worse than the effects of the gain stat potions that beneficial mutation replaced.

[rchandra]

My last Pan death had a bunch of the potions, they were fun though getting dangerous. I had 'you evolve' from my first potion for over 65000 turns, and was starting to fear talons 2 upgrading to disable my boots of running.

[prozacelf]

I missed the commit--does this replace gain X or augment it? I've never seen a gain X since going to .13.

[nicolae]

I missed the commit--does this replace gain X or augment it? I've never seen a gain X since going to .13.

Replace.

[prozacelf]

Thanks. Makes sense. Just wanted to be sure.

[Marbit]

Not wanting to derail the post but. Why not giving the good mutation effect to a fruit instead of a potion?
Regardless of how rare it would appear, it would make food shops worth visiting and give the food option of the scroll of acquirement some sense.
Also since it changes you it would be nice if a sometimes instead of changing you it would temporarily polymorph you with a high level transmutation (dragon, lich, statue, blades), players may delay eating the fruit until they are in combat and or eat it right away and risk wasting a powerful buff.

Also the fruit thing is a nice homage to one piece (we could even make the fruit more likely to appear at the shoals).

[mumra]

...and give the food option of the scroll of acquirement some sense.

http://crawl.develz.org/info/index.php?q=effo

[battaile]

...and give the food option of the scroll of acquirement some sense.

http://crawl.develz.org/info/index.php?q=effo

Can someone explain [3]

[mumra]

...and give the food option of the scroll of acquirement some sense.

http://crawl.develz.org/info/index.php?q=effo

Can someone explain [3]

Sounds like a Pan Lord name.

[battaile]

Ah, you are correct...
141414 | D:10 | Noticed Klelaut the pandemonium lord
141519 | D:5 | Defeated Klelaut the pandemonium lord

Also, 1 hp against Asmodeus, damn.

[jejorda2]

I drank a potion of beneficial mutation in 0.13-a0-1380-g03ef21a as a TrFi of Vehumet, and I got the message, "You feel fantastic for a moment." I don't see any mutations on the A screen. I'm not wearing any jewelry or ego'd equipment.

Is not getting a mutation a bug?

[reaver]

"You feel fantastic for a moment." means Crawl tried to give you a good mutation but failed. Note the message is different than the normal "You feel fantastic." Also, use https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/main_page.php to report bugs. This has already been reported here:https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=7138

[DracheReborn]

Bump. I quite like this change, but in practice it's not very visible I think due to the rarity of the potions (or maybe the RNG just hates me).

Also, the reward seems relatively weak. Aside from the anecdotal letdowns (I got loose muscles in 2 separate games myself), a look at the good mutations list shows that most effects are quite small, at least at Rank 1.

My proposal then, is for beneficial mutation to be weighted towards giving you a second or third rank of any existing good mutation that you have, if you currently have any and if they have ranks. In addition, you shouldn't get a mutation that is mutually exclusive to one of your existing ones (like that loose muscles + stiff muscles example above).

I realize weighting towards existing mutations would make the potion a little similar to demonspawn mutations. On the other hand, the Ds mutations are mostly different from the general list, and in fact there seems to be plans to make Ds mutations even more different. So hopefully it doesn't step on demonspawn's toes too much?

Separately, I'd like to propose that potions of random mutation give at least 1 mutation each from the good list and bad list. I think this makes them truly double edged (with current !mut, it's possible to get all good or all bad mutations depending on how lucky or unlucky you are). Since you're now guaranteed at least 2 mutations (1 good and 1 bad) from the current 1-3, the spawn rate of random mut potions may have to be adjusted to balance.

[Tiber]

Separately, I'd like to propose that potions of random mutation give at least 1 mutation each from the good list and bad list. I think this makes them truly double edged (with current !mut, it's possible to get all good or all bad mutations depending on how lucky or unlucky you are). Since you're now guaranteed at least 2 mutations (1 good and 1 bad) from the current 1-3, the spawn rate of random mut potions may have to be adjusted to balance.

I don't like this. That would make potions of mutation a poor gamble (if they aren't already), as bad mutations are on average more powerful than good mutations.

[starless]

Not sure if this has been brought up before, but I would like to propose that PBM not give you any monstrous mutations, like horns.

Even if monstrous mutations can be beneficial for SOME builds, restricting an armour slot is generally seen as detrimental to MOST.

[duvessa]

If a mutation is considered bad then it should just be put in the "bad mutation" category instead of being a special case for the potion.

[XuaXua]

Since not all mutations have opposites, does the potion have the potential to remove a negative mutation?

[starless]

I am not sure why monstrous mutations are considered good, since they all are situational at best.

[Kate]

I am not sure why monstrous mutations are considered good, since they all are situational at best.

They're not considered "good". Mutations are split into "mostly bad" and "not mostly bad", and potions of beneficial mutation give out "not mostly bad" mutations. Potion of not mostly bad mutation just doesn't quite have the same ring to it, unfortunately.

[rchandra]

other than horns levels 1-2 of the monstrous mutations are strictly good, since you can cover and nullify them anyway. (and horns you still can, but just with hats). They do decent damage especially if you have slaying, so I'm happy to call them "mostly good".

[reg]

Can there be a "Really drink Potion of (Beneficial) Mutation while wearing your Amulet of Resist Mutation?" warning? It is a silly way to waste good potions, without being tactically challenging or anything.

[XuaXua]

Can there be a "Really drink Potion of (Beneficial) Mutation while wearing your Amulet of Resist Mutation?" warning? It is a silly way to waste good potions, without being tactically challenging or anything.

Warnings that are mutable via configuration are always welcome, IMHO.

We already have something like this for reading scrolls of blinking or teleportation while wearing known stasis, right?