Proposal: Launchers with Infinite Unbranded Ammo

[mumra]

autopickup already picks up your starting launcher's ammo now

Yes, I don't think there is any interface problem with ammo management, also a Hunter's melee and ranged weapons start on a and b respectively so you can just press ' to swap between them.

Additionally, I think it's entirely appropriate thematically that a Hunter class should learn some melee. Think of a hunter/trapper type in the wild - I imagine such a person being just as expert with a knife/dagger as with a bow, sneaking up on prey when they didn't want to risk ammo (if anything I would suggest exchanging their starting sword for a dagger).

However the AM doesn't start with any melee weapon and it seems more natural to allow them to use magic to overcome ammo limitations (hell, this a major draw of Corona in the AM book). Of course this is only relevant in the early game or if you're extremely unlucky with finding your chosen type of ammo (and from my own playtesting I've found arrows significantly easier to manage than other types of ammo). So I think this is appropriate for a low-level spell which becomes useless at a certain point in the game when you have plenty of sources of ammo anyway.

[Davion Fuxa]

Less then 100% damage seems really weak. If possible I'd bump up the requirements for the spell to bump up the damage -

As an example, make it hit from 75% to 125% but cost 2 MP per shot and make it have a huge spell gauge so it takes at you high into the double digits for Hexes before you hit that hard.

[mumra]

Well, the point was for it to be weak vs. standard ammo, otherwise it's a low-level spell that you'd still being want to be using in Zot. And bumping up the level would mean it doesn't really achieve the aim of giving you a way to conserve ammo in the early game ...

The idea was a replacement for Corona, when I played AM it seemed kind of fiddly and annoying that you want to cast Corona on literally every target up until the point when you know you have enough ammo.

[Mankeli]

The idea was a replacement for Corona, when I played AM it seemed kind of fiddly and annoying that you want to cast Corona on literally every target up until the point when you know you have enough ammo.

So now you would be casting "Spirit ammo" multiple times (especially because it's much weaker than regular ammo on your proposal) on every target up until the point when you know you have enough ammo?

[mumra]

The idea was a replacement for Corona, when I played AM it seemed kind of fiddly and annoying that you want to cast Corona on literally every target up until the point when you know you have enough ammo.

So now you would be casting "Spirit ammo" multiple times (especially because it's much weaker than regular ammo on your proposal) on every target up until the point when you know you have enough ammo?

Uh no, you cast it once and then it lasts until your MP runs out. Then you switch to real ammo.

[mumra]

The idea was a replacement for Corona, when I played AM it seemed kind of fiddly and annoying that you want to cast Corona on literally every target up until the point when you know you have enough ammo.

So now you would be casting "Spirit ammo" multiple times (especially because it's much weaker than regular ammo on your proposal) on every target up until the point when you know you have enough ammo?

Uh no, you cast it once and then it lasts until your MP runs out. Then you switch to real ammo.

I should also note: the reason it's better being weaker is because this gives you a choice. For dangerous targets you'll want to use real ammo and kill them quicker. If it was as strong or stronger then you'd always use the spirit ammo.

[Davion Fuxa]

I should also note: the reason it's better being weaker is because this gives you a choice. For dangerous targets you'll want to use real ammo and kill them quicker. If it was as strong or stronger then you'd always use the spirit ammo.

Having it start off weak nails the initial purpose of you not using it to kill and Ogre bearing down on you and having it have a higher mana cost of 2 or more will also be a huge drain on the resource that you may not want if you want mana to spare for Confuse and Enslavement.

It will still be used to conserve ammunition but it makes it a trademark of the Arcane Marksmen Class while also giving players some reason to train up Hexes fairly high.

[mumra]

Sorry, I firmly believe that it should never be better than real ammo. Otherwise all ranged characters will want this spell throughout the entire game, and it creates an annoying situation of MP management instead of ammo management. By the time you have high hexes skill there should be better things you want to use your MP for than this.

[njvack]

All through the game, you'd use ammo if you wanted to save you MP for something else, even if spirit arrows were stronger. But I don't know why that would happen; I can't really see a conjurer/marksman hybrid. I'm with mumra; it should probably be strictly weaker than unbranded ammo.

More than any other spell (even buffs), SA seems like one I'd always want to have active (until I never wanted it again). Maybe merely knowing the spell would give you the quiver slot, and firing it would "cast" the spell for the purposes of MP and miscasts?

Or, I know I blaspheme a bit here... but: What if, instead of a spell, the Spirit Arrow were an actual item? It might be as rare as the lamp of fire and such -- but it'd quiver like other ammo and firing it would use MP like the spell. AM could start with one and lose Corona.

[Lasty]

I agree that spirit arrows should always do less damage. Once we start spending MP for equal or greater damage than normal ammo, it starts to feel a lot like a conjurer who trades AOE for range, accuracy, repeatability (since you could still fall back on regular ammo when you run out of MP), irresistible damage, and heavy armour.

[galehar]

So, spirit arrow is like magic dart except it uses the bow skill instead of the conjuration skill. Doesn't sound very interesting to me. And I don't see the issue with having to melee to save ammo. Conjurers do the same to save MP.

[njvack]

Mod note: AM-only discussion split into its own thread.

[tasonir]

I feel like this isn't needed much for arrows, but having it might be nice.

I feel like it will make starting with crossbows much more viable, as that's nearly impossible to do now (ie, start with crossbow, kill everything through crossbows, do not raise significant melee/magic skills). It'll still be harder than bows due to the slow firing speed, but at least you'll be able to keep firing.

Will this simulate stones or sling bullets for slings?

[crate]

Crossbows are already a better starting weapon than bows because they're actually good.

[KennySheep]

A lot of the problems being talked about in these two threads have to do with ammo scarcity. Is having a guaranteed shop that sells an unlimited amount of over-priced basic ammo something the devs are opposed to? It'd solve the problem of crossbow and sling users being so starved for ammunition at the start of the game, while still encouraging players to conserve so they have enough gold for more important things.

[reaver]

A lot of the problems being talked about in these two threads have to do with ammo scarcity.

The thing is, though, this isn't a problem at all. I don't know how you guys play hunters, but I use ammo even on popcorn and have to drop arrows due to weight when I reach ~200 in the mid game. I normally play with bows though- I can't really speak for crossbow users. Even so, having to use proper ammo preservation - normally with branded ammunition - is part of the hunter play style. It makes me think twice before I assault a vault if I think I might flee and be unable to recover ammunition. It makes me decide what brand of arrow I need least when I run out of unbranded ones, and what class of enemy is worth attacking with branded ammo in general. I can't call my experience from ammo mulching anything but positive. So is the need to quickly spread out from your base class- This definitely isn't necessary for a CeHu with bows, but Venom Mages and Necromancers are known for needing to get new tools by mid-game. If you hate the uncertainty of not having enough ammo, or needing to spread out, don't play Hunters. There are enough classes in the game for everybody.

The problem with just adding infinite ammo is just an unnecessary addition. If you still want it, just go play Crawl Light- It has the feature already implemented.

Really, I'm just reiterating what people have already said early in the thread. Seriously, reread it and you'll see a bunch of people agree with me. There aren't really any new arguments here - just people on both sides saying the same things as before. Last year it didn't result in a change, why would it this year?

[KennySheep]

A lot of the problems being talked about in these two threads have to do with ammo scarcity.

The thing is, though, this isn't a problem at all. I don't know how you guys play hunters, but I use ammo even on popcorn and have to drop arrows due to weight when I reach ~200 in the mid game.

I'm just thinking to keep unlucky hunters from running out of ammo in the early game. I'm well aware this issue is gone by the mid game.

I normally play with bows though- I can't really speak for crossbow users. Even so, having to use proper ammo preservation - normally with branded ammunition - is part of the hunter play style. It makes me think twice before I assault a vault if I think I might flee and be unable to recover ammunition. It makes me decide what brand of arrow I need least when I run out of unbranded ones, and what class of enemy is worth attacking with branded ammo in general. I can't call my experience from ammo mulching anything but positive. So is the need to quickly spread out from your base class- This definitely isn't necessary for a CeHu with bows, but Venom Mages and Necromancers are known for needing to get new tools by mid-game. If you hate the uncertainty of not having enough ammo, or needing to spread out, don't play Hunters. There are enough classes in the game for everybody.

I was thinking more like 500 gold a stack, something terribly bad enough players would not want to use it unless forced to, while still keeping unlucky hunters from dying to the random number generator. I like needing to conserve ammo, I want to keep it in. I also don't like losing from getting unlucky with one too many powerful monsters and no ammo drops on the first 4 floors.

The problem with just adding infinite ammo is just an unnecessary addition. If you still want it, just go play Crawl Light- It has the feature already implemented.

Really, I'm just reiterating what people have already said early in the thread. Seriously, reread it and you'll see a bunch of people agree with me. There aren't really any new arguments here - just people on both sides saying the same things as before. Last year it didn't result in a change, why would it this year?

I believe these two paragraphs were aimed more at this thread in general than to the thing I said. I don't want infinite ammo launchers.

[reaver]

while still keeping unlucky hunters from dying to the random number generator.

You can always grab a melee weapon and start swinging. It's what keeps wizards from dying if they don't get any more books for a while. Sure, you might have a harder time or need to start training when you get a bit short on supply, but it's definitely possible.

I believe these two paragraphs were aimed more at this thread in general than to the thing I said. I don't want infinite ammo launchers.

Yes, I only tailored the first paragraph to you specifically. There was probably a clearer way to say that.

[KennySheep]

while still keeping unlucky hunters from dying to the random number generator.

You can always grab a melee weapon and start swinging. It's what keeps wizards from dying if they don't get any more books for a while. Sure, you might have a harder time or need to start training when you get a bit short on supply, but it's definitely possible.

I guess the problem I have is that I see no reason to ever start hunter, if I want to use ranged weapons it is always safer to start as a melee class and switch over later once ammo scarcity stops being a thing.

I'll play a few hunter games to make sure I still feel this way, but from my experience hunters' ammo troubles tend to come up much earlier in the game than wizards' spellbook problems, making it much harder to fix with hybridization.

I believe these two paragraphs were aimed more at this thread in general than to the thing I said. I don't want infinite ammo launchers.

Yes, I only tailored the first paragraph to you specifically. There was probably a clearer way to say that.

Ah, just checking. Carry on.

[crate]

You could always pretend that a crossbow hunter is a gladiator who picked up a crossbow instead of nets.

Additionally I haven't ever had ammo problems as an xbow hunter (or AM) unless I get unlucky, but if that's the case then you need to realise that it is a possibility and adapt. Bow and sling have more ammo problems because they are worse weapons.