XP from summons

[joellercoaster]

I'm pottering around the Elven Halls right now, and I've noticed: I don't appear to be gaining XP for killing the various lesser demons that the guys in robes are throwing at me (trunk build from some time in the last week).

Is this intended? It seems a bit odd, given that I'm killing them fair and square (except when the nequoxecs turn up and I run like a squirrel and wait for them to time out, obviously). I can see how it might prevent (for want of a better term) Summoner Farmimg, but... it doesn't seem right.

[mageykun]

Pretty sure it's intended to prevent summon farming, just as you said. Pretty good reason to abjure or abscond instead of fighting it out.

[Cybermg]

It's worth noting that at least your combat skills train against summoned monsters, so your character's potentially getting something out of it.

[joellercoaster]

I understand the reasons for it and don't think it's a bug or anything.

I just think it's a bit cart-before-horsey... my character is doing things and defeating monsters, and doing things and defeating monsters is the whole rationale behind gaining experience. I know it's only a game and this is one of its little quirks, and RTFM fixes everything.

On the gripping hand, it's mostly popcorn. And when it's not, like mageykun suggests, Step From Time is awesome. I'm not fighting Smoke Demons behind packs if I ain't gettin' paid

[KoboldLord]

The xp value of the summons is included in the xp value of the summoner making them. Making it past the summons spammed at you is basically the same as making it past a centaur's arrows, or an orc priest's smites. Most casters give more xp than a non-caster with similar physical damage output and defenses, so there's your reward for beating the summons.

[joellercoaster]

Been playing a bit more deeply in the game now, and I'm feeling less and less happy about it.

I understand the desire to stop farming behaviour, but when I have to punch my way out through an Ice Dragon (bye-bye potions of various things), a Storm Dragon Skeleton and a pack of well-equipped yaktaurs in open space, I don't really feel like the 20 or so XP from killing the Boggart really reflects the trauma I just went through.

Just sayin'

[KoboldLord]

Boggarts are a tactically interesting monster, and we need more monsters like them. They're nasty if you stand around letting them summon repeatedly, but if you just get out your crossbow and shoot them they're incredibly fragile. Sadly, once you get past the early game it's very possible to blow off ranged weapon skills entirely, so many players don't even bother carrying such a useful tool.

Anyway, next time just run away. There's no reason to actually kill the summons, and I don't see why you'd get more xp for beating a monster by the most incautious and imprudent means available.

[joellercoaster]

Oh, I admit I definitely should have killed the little beggar early, but I was distracted by bigger things chewing on me when it turned up (should still have killed it though). And I have no quarrel with them being in the game - I agree that they're interesting and fun.

I'm just disagreeing, from an enjoyable play standpoint, with the lack of XP for killing the big hurty things it summoned and that I couldn't run from (Ponderous, surrounded), though that isn't particularly relevant.

Saying it was my own fault for fighting them (while true, Chei worshippers should be careful in open spaces) is kind of missing the point; I did fight them, and it was tough. It being potentially avoidable if I'd had a scroll of teleport to burn does not in some way make it more satisfying!

You could say that about any big fight.

[joellercoaster]

(On the other hand, next time I *will* remember to Step From Time )

[zasvid]

Oops, thanked KoboldLord's message by accident, so now I must reply, because I disagree.

Boggarts are a tactically interesting monster, and we need more monsters like them.

While "more tactically interesting monsters" is a good direction to go in, it doesn't mean that they should be like boggarts at all.

For one, monster summoning should really be kept in check because that's one mechanic that, mishandled, easily becomes tedious and/or annoying, sucking the fun out of the game (which happened in an awful lot of roguelikes, though DCSS handles that aspect very well so far).

Also, boggarts have jarringly weak flavour - a little goblin summoning all kinds of random monsters for some reason strongly reminds me that it's a game and it does that to accomplish some gamy things. It would be better if it summoned some fairy-themed monsters or perhaps the shadow creatures looked different. Come to think of, that might be material for a new suggestion, because I think they are already marked as summoned, it's just not visible on the map. Hmmmm...

So, to sum up, boggarts are fun, but could be more so if their abilities felt more flavourful, yet in the search for tactically interesting monsters summoning should be approached very very cautiously.

Sadly, once you get past the early game it's very possible to blow off ranged weapon skills entirely, so many players don't even bother carrying such a useful tool.

Perhaps more people would bother to carry a ranged weapon if maintaining your ammunition wasn't so awfully bothersome.

[coyo7e]

Perhaps more people would bother to carry a ranged weapon if maintaining your ammunition wasn't so awfully bothersome.

Between the 'balanced' aum weight system and having to juggle shields and weapons, on top of the huge portion of ranged weaponry which is simply not worth using past Lair (why do gods reward throwing skill with darts anyway ugh), high break rate of ammo... Shit, I picked up 60 arrows and a glowing long bow on my last character, and the weight hit from the bow was so bad that I couldn't justify even attempting to carry it around to try it out.

Ranged is simply too much effort for not enough gain, with a handful of good options which are too rare to rely on (at least until you reach a level where you really don't need to use them but could find enough to use if you'd wanted to.) Finding a pile of javelins and then having to save them until you can get them to +3 or +4 is just too much of a pain, and with the weapon swap changes they put in to stop people doing teleport-swap abuse, I usually can't justify bothering when spells are more versatile and have just as much range if I use the proper ones.

[danr]

Off topic. I think there is another thread about ranged combat. If not, please start one.