Some notes on Races and Deities

[libelnon]

I've been playing a short while now, and I thought I'd share some thoughts on races and how they're balanced at the moment. Some quick heads up first - I'm a varied player, I mainly consider myself more of a ranged/rogue style player, but I've had more than my fair share of fighters, zealots and hybrids - not so many mages though, don't seem to be so good with them. I've done my part in developing races too, I've been GM for numerous self-built settings in both Savage Worlds and D20. But, this is only supposed to be my two cents on the races as they are in DCSS at the moment.

Wall of Text warning, by the way. I'm a real typer.

First thing I notice is, with the removal of the Mountain Dwarves, there is only one dwarven race, and one orcish race, yet 3 elven races. All of these benefit from equipment that they can find in the dungeon that's been made by their race - which makes me feel that elves are a little overrepresented, or at least, orcs and dwarves are a little under-represented.

Secondly, there isn't a single race which is more apt in crossbows than any other ranged weapon as far as I can tell, only Kobolds exceed +1 (and their +2 aptitude is dwarfed by their throwing aptitude), and only Deep Dwarves offer it as their highest-aptitude ranged weapon (at +1). My suggestion here would be to add in a new Dwarven race to replace the good ol' mountain dwarves who balance a preference for heavier armours with good ranged capabilities - as all of the main choices for a ranged character (HE, Ha, Ko, Ce) are more heavily focused on dodging than armour use (much to the detriment of my HEFis)

Thirdly, the deities at the moment appear to be split up between Good, Evil, and Chaos - with the majority of gods representing Chaos, as perhaps a more 'neutral' ground. What's more, the only gods who don't mind you changing deity are the Good gods (Ely, Zin, TSO). Perhaps some of the Evil deities could be represented in the same way? (Although, 'evil' implies selfish, so it's more of a balancing mechanic and less of a fitting principle with the 'lore' of the game.) Also, there aren't many obvious choices for a ranged-focused character compared with a spellcaster(Sif, Veh, Kiku) or melee orientated fighter (Trog, Oka, TSO), and there's only one choice for a more 'cleric' orientated character, Ely, which is a little sparse. Perhaps, if that style of play was to be expanded on, then adding deities who add heavy restrictions on characters in return for powerful invocations (smite comes to mind, and Orc Priests) to create a more invocation-based playstyle. Could be argued that they would play too much like spellcasters who are limited by pleasing their god rather than MP, but it would help to vary playstyles a bit.

Like I said, it's just my two cents, just ideas. But some thoughts on them would be appreciated.

[nicolae]

First thing I notice is, with the removal of the Mountain Dwarves, there is only one dwarven race, and one orcish race, yet 3 elven races. All of these benefit from equipment that they can find in the dungeon that's been made by their race - which makes me feel that elves are a little overrepresented, or at least, orcs and dwarves are a little under-represented.

The effects of racial-branded equipment aren't really that major, though, certainly not major enough to require adding new species.

Secondly, there isn't a single race which is more apt in crossbows than any other ranged weapon as far as I can tell, only Kobolds exceed +1 (and their +2 aptitude is dwarfed by their throwing aptitude), and only Deep Dwarves offer it as their highest-aptitude ranged weapon (at +1). My suggestion here would be to add in a new Dwarven race to replace the good ol' mountain dwarves who balance a preference for heavier armours with good ranged capabilities - as all of the main choices for a ranged character (HE, Ha, Ko, Ce) are more heavily focused on dodging than armour use (much to the detriment of my HEFis)

There've been about a thousand ideas for new Dwarven species, only one of which, the Forge Dwarves, has ever been close to being considered, and "we need something good at crossbows" isn't really a good basis for a new species. Why does it matter that Kobolds have a better Throwing aptitude than Crossbows, if you want to play Crossbows?

(Although, 'evil' implies selfish, so it's more of a balancing mechanic and less of a fitting principle with the 'lore' of the game.)

It would only be unnecessary thematic balance, not gameplay balance (and being able to switch between evil gods without wrath would probably upset the latter quite a bit).

Also, there aren't many obvious choices for a ranged-focused character compared with a spellcaster(Sif, Veh, Kiku) or melee orientated fighter (Trog, Oka, TSO)

Fedhas? Makhleb?

[Jabberwocky]

Thirdly, the deities at Also, there aren't many obvious choices for a ranged-focused character compared with a spellcaster(Sif, Veh, Kiku) or melee orientated fighter (Trog, Oka, TSO), and there's only one choice for a more 'cleric' orientated character, Ely, which is a little sparse.

Trog, Oka, Ely, Nemelex, Mahkleb, Fedhas all work out for ranged.

[nicolae]

Adding a new species requires a lot of effort to design, code, and balance, and adding a new god requires even more effort. Adding new species and gods should not be the first solution you think of to any game problem, real or imagined.

[dpeg]

Discussion of deities conjures me to this place.

It may look odd but Fedhas was supposed to be a god who (also) caters for ranged combat, including spells. There were (and probably are) a large number of proposals who approached the goal Ranged Combat God a lot more directly, but I think it works a lot better to have gods be designed skew to playing styles. Ideally, a god would work for quite different styles, bringing something different to the table for different characters. Or to put it the other way around: the more pidgeon-holed a god is, the stronger the force for characters matching the hole to actually pick that god.

Regarding cooperation among non-good gods: I don't think that'll ever come. Changing gods is far from perfect in Crawl but the good god alliance is not just flavour, it is also supposed to add strategic flexibility. Some pain was taken to make the good gods more diverse (all of Ely, TSO and Zin got major changes). I cannot see someone attempting something similar for other gods, just to allow easier god switching.

Regarding cleric-style: I'm not really familiar with RPGs, so I might miss something, but doesn't Ashenzari fit the picture of a priest's god?

[Stormfox]

It may look odd but Fedhas was supposed to be a god who (also) caters for ranged combat, including spells.

No, I can see that. Being able to duck behind a barricade that the monsters would have to bash through (and a lot faster than Passwall) is something that ranged fighters would treasure mightily.

[evilmike]

Regarding cleric-style: I'm not really familiar with RPGs, so I might miss something, but doesn't Ashenzari fit the picture of a priest's god?

I think when people say Cleric, they are usually talking about D&D clerics. These are pretty varied (especially when comparing different editions) but are basically users of "divine magic" (given by gods, as opposed to arcane magic). Divine magic has its own list of spells separate from what wizards et al get, but it otherwise plays fairly similarly. Clerics can basically do anything, but a major part of what they (typically) do is healing magic. It should also be noted that clerics can follow evil gods just as much as they can follow good ones.

I suppose the healing aspect is what makes ely seem like a "cleric god". In my opinion Crawl doesn't have anything remotely resembling a D&D cleric (you'd need to add, at the minimum, an entire new school of magic - and treat it like magic, not like invocations). Thus, I think it's interesting that someone would make the comparison.

[eeviac]

My only experience with D&D is Baldur's Gate 2, and in that game, clerics can do pretty much anything: healing, buffs, summoning, damage spells... using heavy armor/weapons at the same time. Crawl's Necromancy school covers most of these bases. I don't want more D&D in Crawl.