Hiding around corners

[joellercoaster]

Is it just me, or have missile using monsters gotten cleverer at the "ambush behind a corner" game?

As in, instead of running to the place where they saw you last, they try to go to a place where they can still shoot at the square behind the corner without being immediately engaged in melee?

If this is a deliberate change by someone... nice one. If it's not... hmm.

(It's also made Dig much more useful )

[galehar]

Is it just me, or have missile using monsters gotten cleverer at the "ambush behind a corner" game?

As in, instead of running to the place where they saw you last, they try to go to a place where they can still shoot at the square behind the corner without being immediately engaged in melee?

If this is a deliberate change by someone... nice one. If it's not... hmm.

(It's also made Dig much more useful )

It is a deliberate change
You like it?

[sanka]

I also noticed this change and quite liked it. I think the game needs further AI changes - like intelligent monsters shouldn't mindlessly walk in a cloud. I know it's not easy to improve AI, but the game would benefit from these changes a lot.

[galehar]

I also noticed this change and quite liked it. I think the game needs further AI changes - like intelligent monsters shouldn't mindlessly walk in a cloud. I know it's not easy to improve AI, but the game would benefit from these changes a lot.

I agree about the walking into clouds. And it shouldn't be too hard to do by the way. There's also the intelligent monsters who keep trying to poison you when you are obviously resisting. I'd like to fix those two. But we also shouldn't go too far with AI. Imagine how fun it would be if centaurs were kiting...

[joellercoaster]

It is a deliberate change
You like it?

I do!

[smock]

I love the change, too. It's amazing. Good work on it.

Another idea for an AI change for missile-bearing monsters: make them charge to square from which they can fire when there's another monster in the way. It's too easy to use one centaur as a meat shield -- I should have to use two!

Current behavior seems to be:

  Code:

..c..
.....
.c...
.@...

.....
.c... <- useless position
.c...
.@...

.....
.....
.cc..  <- almost useless position
.@...


Righteous and nasty behavior would be:

  Code:

..c..
.....
.c...
.@...

.....
...c. <- smack-down position
.c...
.@...


One way to implement this would be if the AI routines for missile-bearing monsters had them selecting at random from the 1-3 squares that bring it closer the @.

[Moose]

Another nice behavior I'd like to see is with orc/ogre bands.

Right now, orc priests will seem to try to shove their way through their normal orc allies to try to get close to you in melee. Ideally it should be the opposite. The other orcs (regular ones, warriors, knights) should try to surround you, while the priest moves purposefully to the back of the pack so that it can smite you.

Maybe this is too griefy, but it would add some nice mob-ai flavor.

Similarly, I've often thought it would be interesting if banded monsters with shields could block for eachother. Imaging fighting 2 orc warriors, one with a broad axe, and another with a war axe and a shield (I know that orcs never spawn with shields). It would be a really neat mechanic where if you're attacking the one with the executioner's axe, the one with the broad axe would use his shield to block your attacks, making you focus on the defensive opponent first.

Just some random thoughts...

[szanth]

Vaguely relevant; what kind of smite does the Orc Priest have? Is it, like the players' smite, based on piety and invocations? And can they run out of piety?

[KoboldLord]

Vaguely relevant; what kind of smite does the Orc Priest have? Is it, like the players' smite, based on piety and invocations? And can they run out of piety?

Monsters are immune to player concerns like hunger costs, piety costs, mp costs, and spell failure. Their spells just work.

Sometimes they even get free upgrades! Just watch player ghosts summon orange rats with summon small mammals, or torment you with agony! Oh yeah, they also have a different damage cap for every direct damage spell. A higher damage cap.

[szanth]

*facepalm*

Maybe bad AI is the natural nerf to all those advantages. -_-

[mageykun]

*facepalm*

Maybe bad AI is the natural nerf to all those advantages. -_-

Yup. An intellectual advantage is all the player has over the dungeon denizens. They already outnumber us, and more than often, out power us. Give them the intellect to always use those advantages in the best way... and we're some serious trouble. (Not that there's anything wrong with tweaking the AI, you just don't want them too smart. )

[barasia]

How about making centaurs RUN away from you when you get within 2 tiles from them?

the current strategy with centuars is to get get up close next to them so they switch to melee, and become completely useless.
compared to the Deep elf Master Archer, who simply shoots anyway even if you are next to them.

why can't centaurs simply shoot anyway, if you are next to them, or maybe make them run away so they can continue shooting.

that way, a melee character won't have the option to simply close the distance towards a centaur. centaurs used to be the bane of a melee character, but now they seem so weak, as i only need to get up close and hack it to pieces while the centaur very stupidly stays there missing me with its bare hands. even as a spellcaster or range character, i also rather face the useless arms of a centaur than its arrows.

if centaurs can run away within a 2 tile distance gap, at least i would consider it a threat early on rather than a "Meh, lets jut get up close to it".

[szanth]

Because basically if the centaur runs away everytime you get close, you end up chasing it, most classes are slow enough to where it gets a shot in every other turn, and you die unless you have a ranged weapon of some kind. In general: noooooooo. I don't wanna spend forever chasing a centaur, enemies run away too often as it is.

[barasia]

then again, as a centaur, isn't that what we always do? run away when they get clsoe so we can get some extra shots in?

there is already a variant to this behavious.

Nessos. He a high level centaur unique, with the ability to BLINK.
Nessos is so powerful since he almost always spawn with branded bow and arrows, has very high accuracy, and very high speed and damage.

combine it with BLINK SPAM, any melee character will have a hard time killing him, since Nessos keeps on blinking away fom the player. it is these situations that make crawl interesting. theres nothing more thrilling in crawl than finding a worthy opponent, and making the adrenaline-laden chase.

Nessos is already petty challenging, but all his race variants are pretty lame, in that their threat are significantly nullified once you get next to them.
my reason for making centaurs move away, is not only for behavioural issues, but i believe in terms of gameplay, it will make it more interesting.
it just doesn't make sense for a ranged monster to blindly close the gap to you , and force itself to NOT use its range weapon.
what i am suggesting is that the centaurs keeps some distance, but not neccessarily run away like if it were scared from a scroll of fear.

besides it encourages the player to use some strategy besides the "lets rush them" tactic. one might hide behind a corner to lure the centaur closer, or use smooke screens.

[szanth]

But as stated, since enemies overwhelm us with numbers and being generally stronger, the only thing we have above them is tactics.

The strategy for centaurs -is- to hide behind a corner and lure them closer. But you don't think it'd be irritating and tedious to have to do that over and over again because he would run away after you hit him once?

[smock]

In my opinion, it would be hard to make kiting centaurs fun. If centaurs and yaktaurs kited, melee-oriented characters might need to be buffed.

It would be easy to let them shoot arrows at you when adjacent. And it I hope it wouldn't be too hard to make them approach more intelligently by keeping a clear shot to the character and not hanging out in dangerous clouds.

On a related note, monsters (smartly) leave LOS when approaching you, if possible. But missile-bearing monsters approaching you lose out on a turn of missile firing. Maybe monsters with missile attacks should not leave LOS when approaching. (Or maybe just missile-bearing monsters with full health, where full health is meant to proxy for "the character isn't slapping me with missiles.)

[evilmike]

In my opinion, it would be hard to make kiting centaurs fun. If centaurs and yaktaurs kited, melee-oriented characters might need to be buffed.

It would be easy to let them shoot arrows at you when adjacent. And it I hope it wouldn't be too hard to make them approach more intelligently by keeping a clear shot to the character and not hanging out in dangerous clouds.

On the first point you are absolutely right. If you want to see what a roguelike is like with smart AI, play this http://www.zincland.com/7drl/kobold/ . galehar is right about striking a balance and not going too far (still it's amusing to see what happens when a game does go too far as in the example I linked to).

On the second point, I like how ranged monsters switch to melee attacks in melee range. This is somewhat stupid behaviour on their part, but it creates tactical opportunities for the player, which is always a good thing.

[smock]

On the second point, I like how ranged monsters switch to melee attacks in melee range. This is somewhat stupid behaviour on their part, but it creates tactical opportunities for the player, which is always a good thing.

Shoot, I must be missing the tactical opportunities. Might charging with a DEFE just to avoid missiles be one? Did you have anything else in mind?

[mageykun]

Personally, I think it would make more sense if there were some substantial penalty to using ranged weapons when adjacent to the target. Besides the obvious enemy smacking you. For example, a considerable speed penalty since you don't have room to set up the shot and have to maneuver around your opponents arm, sword, etc. That would justify monsters switching to mele, and would encourage ranged weapon players to do the same, or retreat. We could leave the machine gunning elven bow-masters as an evil special case though.

[danr]

I'm not sure why, but I have a strong tendency to switch to melee when adjacent anyway. I think I just figured there had to be a penalty, or that melee is just stronger anyway.

[coyo7e]

On the second point, I like how ranged monsters switch to melee attacks in melee range. This is somewhat stupid behaviour on their part, but it creates tactical opportunities for the player, which is always a good thing.

Shoot, I must be missing the tactical opportunities. Might charging with a DEFE just to avoid missiles be one? Did you have anything else in mind?

Yes, closing to melee is a good idea for centaurs. They hit pretty good in melee but usually they can't deal nearly as much damage toe to toe as they can from ranged.

Also, intelligent creatures do not 'mindlessly walk into clouds', they avoid them, unless they're cocky, at which point they'll enter clouds which they think they can handle because they'd rather get to you quicker.

[omndra]

Righteous and nasty behavior would be:

  Code:

..c..
.....
.c...
.@...

.....
...c. <- smack-down position
.c...
.@...


One way to implement this would be if the AI routines for missile-bearing monsters had them selecting at random from the 1-3 squares that bring it closer the @.

A bit late but

  Code:

.....
...c.
.c...
.@...

.....
...c.
.c@..  <- Win
.....


That and Bad AI isn't a bad thing, just look at Demon Souls.
Its a REALLY hard but really enjoyable game, and the AI is terrible.
But you aren't really fighting the AI, you are fighting against certain people/monsters with different attacks/weapons.

I like the ranged attack AI update, but now i dread the day i Encounter a Quicksilver again.

[smock]

A bit late but

  Code:

.....
...c.
.c...
.@...

.....
...c.
.c@..  <- Win
.....


Win, yes, but you'd spend a turn on that win.

When a centaur is approaching from afar and I'm fighting another, I either move to put myself in melee between the two centaurs or move to position one centaur in front of the second, so the second can't plug me from afar. But opponents with ranged attacks seem to work with me instead of against me in how they approach when there's another opponent blocking their shot!

When I'm hiding around corners, the behavior in trunk is bomber. It's just so cool and it makes me happy. (Does anyone else get this happy from a decent AI that support strategic positining???) Applying (code similar to the) code just implemented for how opponents approach a player hiding behind a corner could make for really cool opponent behavior in response to the "hide behind another centaur" strategy.

Even more killer is an approach from further out -- this would make the player move to hide behind the other centaur, and not let player get the approaching centaur to swap to melee/die mode.

  Code:

..c.
....
....
....
.c..
.@..

....
...c <- "Who's your daddy"
....
....
.c..
.@..

....
...c
....
....
.c..
@... <- "I'm wasting time trying to hide"


[Bim]

Got to say, I noticed the improvement in the 'coming round corners' thing in trunk and absolutely. absolutely. loved it! +10 potions of experience for whoever did it! Do monsters try and get behind you more now (if you've corridored yourself)? It seems that way somehow?

I have to say though, I HATE having to chase after creatures, I've always though they should only be able to run off once and after that just stick it out.

Centaurs are great the way they are I think, they provide a challenge to start with, and can still be deadly with a runed bow, but you can deal with them if you're careful. To me, thats the whole fun of crawl, it starting off a challenge, and then when you figure more stuff out you can develop ways of dealing with them!

[Bim]

Sorry about the DP, still can't edit!

Another thing thing I noticed just now was that if you're a merfolk and you have some deep water, you can just lead monsters to the edge and pick them off. I managed to get two trolls and a doubled headed ogre with 'throw frost' without them running away. Although I can understand its a benefit of merfolk, it still seems like they should move away when they realise they can't get you.

Sorry again for the double edit!

[Curio]

Sorry about the DP, still can't edit!

Another thing thing I noticed just now was that if you're a merfolk and you have some deep water, you can just lead monsters to the edge and pick them off. I managed to get two trolls and a doubled headed ogre with 'throw frost' without them running away. Although I can understand its a benefit of merfolk, it still seems like they should move away when they realise they can't get you.

Sorry again for the double edit!

Makes sense. But still, you will kill them by kiting when they continuously run to/from water edge. I don't know how to avoid this.

[smock]

Sorry about the DP, still can't edit!

Another thing thing I noticed just now was that if you're a merfolk and you have some deep water, you can just lead monsters to the edge and pick them off. I managed to get two trolls and a doubled headed ogre with 'throw frost' without them running away. Although I can understand its a benefit of merfolk, it still seems like they should move away when they realise they can't get you.

Sorry again for the double edit!

Makes sense. But still, you will kill them by kiting when they continuously run to/from water edge. I don't know how to avoid this.

Once an opponent (who cannot retaliate) is hit by a player to whom there exists no path, the opponent could flee. Fleeing out of LOS should solve most of the abuse. Fleeing out of LOS of the water AND of the player could solve all problems, but as I understand it this would take a lot of effort to code, as LOS is player-centric in the code.