How is Ranged OP?

[bobross419]

I've seen a lot of posts lately saying that ranged is OP, but I'm just not getting that feeling from playing a CeHu. I have a much, much easier time of things with both a dedicated melee with Demon Trident/Trishula as well as a dedicated nuker. Can someone break it down for me?

Maybe I'm just doing it wrong, but a +5 Longbow with +4 arrows and 26 Bows just doesn't seem to do a whole lot for me. Its great against enemies that don't have a melee attack, but it takes a lot longer to kill everything than either melee or caster nukes which causes problems against enemies with ranged attacks. At one point I got so frustrated with this character that I just switched over to a crappy glaive (11 polearms) and tried to tab-suicide, but I actually killed off the 3 enemies that I was having trouble bowing to death in just a couple turns. I've had many more close calls as a bowyer than I usually do as a suboptimal melee (1-hand + shield).

Is it just considered OP because you can kill melee only enemies without them being able to hit you? I really just don't understand. On top of everything else its really, really boring and tedious to play a ranged character

[smock]

What's your dexterity? If it's low (below 15 or so) you may not be at minimum delay yet. In fact, you might not be able to reach min delay.

Try vorpalizing your longbow as well. Of course, the +30% base damage translates into much more than an additional 30% actual damage due to monsters AC reductions.

[bobross419]

Dex is at 20... I was using a randart poison branded longbow (only longbow worth a crap that I've found) and no Vorpal scrolls up until now... Actually just found my first EW3 and Vorpal hiding in V:8, so I'll go grab one of the longbows that was sitting on the ground and enchant it up. Delay is at .6 (.3 with Finesse) which I believe is minimum and I have +8 slaying.

[Deimos]

I have the same problem as you, but its more towards what everyone says is easy and what is actually easy for me. Summoners, Ranged, DD, etc. Its all pretty difficult for me.

[bobross419]

Alright, got a +4, +5 LB of Velocity. Going to go see how this handles in the deeper D levels.

EDIT: +5,+6 since the RNG decided to give me another EWIII

Not really seeing much difference really. Still just as easy (and way less tedious) to hack away with a Bardiche at 11 Polearms.

[BlackSheep]

I don't know what to tell you. A longbow at that skill level should trivialize everything that's not a rune level, especially with Oka's boosts. What kind of problems are you having, exactly?

[bobross419]

I don't know what to tell you. A longbow at that skill level should trivialize everything that's not a rune level, especially with Oka's boosts. What kind of problems are you having, exactly?

Stone Giants and Dragons primarily, but even Yaktaur packs can get me low on hp... Things that I have no trouble with for a similarly leveled MiFi. I got Repel Missile so that I have a little more survivability, but I did come damn close to dying in V:8.

I'm pretty much comparing this CeHu to similarly leveled Mifi and HeFe - Both of which just breeze through at this point in the game. The CeHu just doesn't seem to have the damage output and has to spend more time running away, and a Tormentor easily hits me with 2 or 3 torments before I kill it, something that rarely happens with either of the other builds.

[BlackSheep]

I'm sorry, what? You're sad that you had a little trouble with V:8? Are you trying to go toe-to-toe with packs of these things at once, or are you using your maneuverability and ranged power to control the battlefield?

[bobross419]

I've tried both tactics... The second is much safer, but is about as boring as trying to figure out how to play Dwarf Fortress.

And in comparison to MiFi and HeFe, I figure that something that has been touted as OP wouldn't have any problems.

The initial question is why is ranged considered OP? I'm not looking for specific tips on my character, but on why its considered OP in the first place. If its because you can kite everything in the game I'll just go ahead and ctrl+shift+q right now.

[bobross419]

I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong, but I'm taking less incoming damage with the Bardiche at 1.3 delay than I am with the LB. Almost died to a Lich I was keeping at the edge of LOS because he started summoning some real nasties... ran upstairs, rested, came back down and killed him without taking any damage by rushing him with the Bardiche.

EDIT: And of course right after that I have the opposite happen. Almost die with the Bardiche but cleanup no problem with the LB lol

[kefir645]

"Ranged is OP" is a Tavern's meme.

[Deimos]

Now you have me worried.

[smock]

You don't have to be at range to use ranged. Traditional melee tricks like backing around a corner against 'taurs and stone giants work just as well with ranged weapons as with melee weapons.

Maybe is that you're playing a centaur? That said, my centaur bowmen end up dying as well. In contrast, my high elf, minotaur and naga bowmen tend to survive nicely. Maybe centaurs are just glass cannons. With deformed bodies and terrible dodging, that wouldn't be too surprising to me.

What armour are you in? Are you casting any spells?

[bobross419]

I tried doing the melee bow thing, but it didn't seem to be any better than melee.

But what is it about ranged that makes it OP? Is it kitability? Killability? Its not horrible and I could probably ascend this character if I was so inclined, but it doesn't feel OP.... Like I said, not looking for specific CIP type stuff, I'm more curious about why its considered OP because I'd take Trishula+Shield over Bows any day of the week just based on my experience so far.

[mageykun]

Here's the argument for why ranged is overpowered, as best I can make it.

I tried doing the melee bow thing, but it didn't seem to be any better than melee.

No, but it's just as good as melee.

I'd take Trishula+Shield over Bows any day of the week just based on my experience so far.

Polearms are better than other melee options because they give you 1 space of reach. Ranged is better than a polearm because it gives you LOS reach.

Giving up a shield isn't a significant factor. After all, the advice is already often to go 2handed over 1handed w/ shield in melee. (As better players than I are fond of saying, killing the enemy faster is a better defense that a shield, and many late threats aren't blockable anyways).

Unlike conjurations (or ranged magical options in general) you only have to train 1 school. (Heck, you only have to train one skill for melee and ranged).

You have powerful brands available in both in the material branches (vorpal) and the extra-planer ones (longbox/xbow of holy wrath). You're pretty much always going to find a scroll of vorpalize weapon (if Oka / Trog doesn't just gift you a branded weapon), and getting TSO's blessing is as easy as doing the crypt.

I've tried both tactics... The second is much safer, but is about as boring as trying to figure out how to play Dwarf Fortress.

The claim is that ranged is powerful, nothing else. In fact, the general consensus is that optimal ranged play is boring, and therefore underutilized.

[rchandra]

it's the large amount of damage you can do as your opponent approaches, the less damage you take from wizards, etc. Note that "kiting" isn't going to be common on non-Ce builds, but ranged is still very strong. And unlike conjurations, you have fairly low cost to use and to train, and can wear armour.

[kefir645]

Conjurations have more damage per aut, area of effect damage and more flexibility. Let's not even talk about Summoning.

[bobross419]

Thanks mk and chan. Your answers helped clear up my confusion. Think i prefer melee as its way less tedious.

Also, i specified trish+shield because it Is considered suboptimal and has repeatedly given me better results.

[pratamawirya]

The claim is that ranged is powerful, nothing else. In fact, the general consensus is that optimal ranged play is boring, and therefore underutilized.

Yeah, I just murdered my HaHu by sending him face-to-face with Nikola in a corridor without rElec, because murdering people with my vorpal sling was really boring.

[bobross419]

But what is it about ranged that makes it OP?

The fact that it is better than the options that are considered well-balanced, most obviously conjurations and melee.

Can you elaborate on how exactly its better?

[pratamawirya]

Most of the time, there's absolutely no risk in shooting enemies from afar (unless you're in Slime Pits or (to a lesser extent) Abyss, maybe). And by the time they get in melee range for whatever reason, you can still shoot their faces just fine. "Risk free" + "just fine" = "ridiculous", at least according to Crawl's standard.

Really, you should feel the power of a holy longbow in extended (I have an offline CeHu ready to grab the 15th rune, but I'm too lazy to resume the game because his holy longbow disgusts me). And MuBe isn't supposed to be easy, but after you pick a random sling off the ground (and preferably also a shield), it feels so.

[crate]

A vorpal longbow does damage pretty comparable to a freezing/flaming battleaxe, and definitely better damage than a trishula.

[sir_laser]

IME ranged has the potential to be the best option in extended. It is possible to oneshot a hellbeast w/ a blessed longbow of holywrath and nonenchanted arrows.

[sanka]

I have only tried seriously CeHu once, but it was boring and powerful.

Altough my MiFis and DEWi s are felt much more powerful, I know they were not. Both of them were much more interesting, because I needed to use different tactics based on the situation, and could do funny things. Also, they could deal more damage in one turn, which makes you feel stronger. But a conjurer always has the risk to run out of mana, which is a serious limitation and danger. You need to be careful. A minotaur has very good defenses, very good melee attacks, but you need to go close to the enemies. This means other enemies may come to the battlefield, or you always withdrawing before battle to avoid more encounters, so you need to think on positioning more, use your consumables more, or use rods etc. And you lose 6-7 turns to approach an enemy.

The centaur hunter, while she was able to deal similar amount of damage, has none of these drawbacks.
Tactics with a high level hunter: No danger : autofight. Danger: Haste+Finesse+autofight.
Since you can attack the end of LOS, the danger to draw more enemies to the battlefield greatly reduces. The only tactics I used is to target the most dangerous enemy first and to withdraw if there were too many at once. There are no encounters in the game which I know of (I haven't tried extended) where you need to change this tactics. The only enemy I remember kiting after level 10 were Mennas, because her big shield blocked a lot of arrows - but she was also very easy to defeat.

She felt a little similar to my mummy summoner in that one tactics ruled the game (after the very beginning).

[Dustbin]

Ranged is like melee, except you're ranged.

[XuaXua]

Oh wow, I just got that "OP" means "Over Powered".

[XuaXua]

I have only tried seriously CeHu once, but it was boring and powerful.

I agree, fully.

Never have I been so NOT disappointed in a long-running character dying.

[bobross419]

I have only tried seriously CeHu once, but it was boring and powerful.

I agree, fully.

Never have I been so NOT disappointed in a long-running character dying.

Agreed... I just stopped playing my CeHu and went back to something that is actually fun like OpCo and MiFi.

[Blade]

In my experience, ranged combat isn't all that boring as long as you're not mortally afraid to use tab (and by "use" I don't mean "hold it down constantly" but rather "tap it like you would tap an arrow key"). The only issue after that is picking ammo up, and that's really not a big deal.

[pratamawirya]

To me, the boredom comes more from the power (low-risk, high-reward), rather than from the tedium.

[Blade]

I find that a good solution to being overpowered is to start diving and play for score

[XuaXua]

MILD Ranged nerf suggestion: You cannot recover non-penetrating arrows and bolts from a successfully hit target until the target is dead.

Probably too much.

IMHO, This thread probably doesn't belong in Character Builds, but should go to design.

I find that a good solution to being overpowered is to start diving and play for score

I was bored in PAN.

[Blade]

I find that a good solution to being overpowered is to start diving and play for score

I was bored in PAN.

I find that a good solution to being bored in extended is to not do extended

[XuaXua]

I find that a good solution to being overpowered is to start diving and play for score

I was bored in PAN.

I find that a good solution to being bored in extended is to not do extended

Except I wanted all 15 runes.

[njvack]

One thing I'm surprised hasn't been mentioned in this thread is Portal Projectile, which gives a smite attack for 2mp. That Tormentor as at the edge of LOS behind a million imps? No problem.

[XuaXua]

One thing I'm surprised hasn't been mentioned in this thread is Portal Projectile, which gives a smite attack for 2mp. That Tormentor as at the edge of LOS behind a million imps? No problem.

I love it, but I was completely unable to find the spell even deep into the extended endgame with my CeHu.

[Dustbin]

MILD Ranged nerf suggestion: You cannot recover non-penetrating arrows and bolts from a successfully hit target until the target is dead.

Probably too much.

IMHO, This thread probably doesn't belong in Character Builds, but should go to design.

I find that a good solution to being overpowered is to start diving and play for score

I was bored in PAN.

Pan is quite boring really, especially since the demonic rune is like the abyssal runes dickass brother.

[kefir645]

I was bored in PAN.

Pan is the easiest and dullest postgame branch in my experience (except for Abyss, but Abyss is easier then Vaults:8 or even Shoals:5 for the vast majority of characters, so I'm not sure you can even count it as extended).

One thing I'm surprised hasn't been mentioned in this thread is Portal Projectile, which gives a smite attack for 2mp. That Tormentor as at the edge of LOS behind a million imps? No problem.

Translocations itself is pretty overpowered school, I think.

[bobross419]

The biggest annoyance of ranged for me is going around and pickinig up all the arrows, then managing the inventory. I know that the inventory management has been addressed in trunk, so that is definitely good news, but the mulching and gathering just adds tedium. It does add a strategic element regarding carrying capacity and skill selection (Do I train up a melee skill in case I run out of ammo?), but its just tedious to me.

Was any thought given to replacing ammo (arrows, bolts, stones, bullets) with a quiver item that auto replenishes? I know that a lot of though and work has already gone into the ranged changes, so I'm asking more out of curiousity than submitting a proposal.

I don't think I'll be playing dedicated ranged characters anymore, but my experience has given me some insight into the benefits of putting a few points into a ranged skill on a melee character.

[XuaXua]

The biggest annoyance of ranged for me is going around and pickinig up all the arrows ... the mulching and gathering just adds tedium.

settings/autopickup_exceptions.txt

  Code:

# INCLUSIONS
ae = <arrow


[Grimm]

The biggest annoyance of ranged for me is going around and pickinig up all the arrows, then managing the inventory. I know that the inventory management has been addressed in trunk, so that is definitely good news, but the mulching and gathering just adds tedium.

Go into autopickup_exceptions.txt and add

  Code:

ae = <arrow

That way gathering ammo is a simple matter of o.

[XuaXua]

What am I, chopped liver?

[Jabberwocky]

What am I, chopped liver?

It's because you have a habit of making things up while Grimm is a respected dwarf in this community.

[XuaXua]

What am I, chopped liver?

It's because you have a habit of making things up while Grimm is a respected dwarf in this community.

He should'a been exterminated last version with the rest of his kind.

[bobross419]

Happy?

I appreciate the suggestion, but that isn't the only reason I find it boring. I'll just stick with my MiFi and various Op.