Aboms vs Aboms

[XuaXua]

Abominations from scrolls of unholy creation (the new name!) vs. Abominations from crawling corpses, do not combine.

It's my understanding that they're the same abominations? Or different?

Seems inconsistent, and combining multiple aboms from multiple scrolls might actually give someone a reason to stockpile them up.

[BlackSheep]

Combine in what way?

[bobross419]

Aboms form together similar to the Green Slimies.. from a pulp to the small to large. They don't unform though. Saves you from having to do the math on corpse stacks to always get large.

[njvack]

More importantly, it saves you from tediously carrying corpses around to stack 'em. Also, it's kind of awesome. And makes monster Twisted Resurrection work.

It does seem kinda like the scroll-summoned ones should merge just like the spell ones.

[XuaXua]

It feels like an unintentional omission.

[BlackSheep]

I don't understand. You cast Twisted Resurrection. Instead of having to stack the corpses in one square, the corpses crawl together and form the abomination. If you cast it again later, do the new corpses beef up the first abomination? I was under the impression that they just form a second one, and that the crawly corpse mechanic was just to reduce the tedium of dragging bodies around.

The scroll just summons a fully formed abomination for you. How would that interact with the spell?

[njvack]

Crawling corpses will merge onto small abominations to make 'em big.

[BlackSheep]

Wow, that's a big buff to that spell. I don't think that was warranted at all.

[njvack]

Buff? That's how the new version has always worked, AFAIK. Unless I'm totally mistaken; haven't played with it outside wizmode and that was a while ago.

Crawling corpses are speed 8, have 1HP and no attack, so you want to cast TR in a place safe from dangerous creatures like rats.

And remember: this works for monster TR as well, so those Deep Elf Death Mages can make something more interesting than a horde of zombies now.

Though: not that much more interesting; even a large abom in the Elf vault isn't remarkably dangerous. Maybe it'd make sense to give TR to something earlier -- orc sorcs? Ogre magi?

[BlackSheep]

It's a buff over the old behavior. You used to get whatever size abomination was available at the time you cast the spell. Now you can run along spamming it, growing your permanent horde of flesh that follows you between levels.

[crate]

Twisted res was always super OP but "balanced" by being super annoying (it is like Yred but much worse since only adjacent aboms will follow you). Now it is still basically the same power and very marginally less annoying.

[njvack]

What if allied aboms rotted over time (or when healing), requiring more corpses to maintain their size? If it didn't let you build a permanent army, it might be reasonable to make it less annoying.

[KoboldLord]

It's a buff over the old behavior. You used to get whatever size abomination was available at the time you cast the spell. Now you can run along spamming it, growing your permanent horde of flesh that follows you between levels.

Corpse Stacking: The Game was an abomination of gameplay and needed to be removed regardless of the final impact on the power of the spell. If it needs to be tweaked back down a few notches, that's really a separate issue.

That said, I don't really think it's wildly out of line with the rest of necromancy. Zombies made from choice corpses are very strong, and you can also upgrade to Simulacrum which leads to an absolutely silly mob of undead hydrae and ettins. It can clear Lair and Orc real well, but lots of level 5 spells can do the same without requiring you to maneuver permanent allies up and down stairs.

[BlackSheep]

I think it's the fact that they follow you between levels that strikes me as too strong. Simulacrum will let you make powerful minions, but can they take stairs? This is all a side issue...

XuaXua's original question stands, should scroll abominations be treated different from spell abominations? If so, should the creature created by the scroll be called something else?

[KoboldLord]

I think it's the fact that they follow you between levels that strikes me as too strong. Simulacrum will let you make powerful minions, but can they take stairs? This is all a side issue...

A necro-heavy build is probably following Kiku, so if you need your undead minions to follow you down stairs you can just hit the corpse drop a couple times and immediately get back about six times as much piety as you spent as your instant undead horde kills everything on the level. Undead minions are a renewable resource.

[JeffQyzt]

Well, there used to be "undead abominations" and "demonic abominations" with different holinesses, that were apparently merged into a single type because it was hard to discern the difference (they used the same tiles, and had overlapping palette ranges for ASCII) not to mention being no intuitive way to determine what actions would result in what type. I believe the scrolls used to generate the demonic type. It would seem that any remaining differences that keep them from being "all just abominations in here", are an oversight.

As a practical matter, does anyone ever get enough unholy creation scrolls to worry about this?

[Jabberwocky]

As a practical matter, does anyone ever get enough unholy creation scrolls to worry about this?

I will frequently find 4 or 5 by the latish game.

[XuaXua]

As a practical matter, does anyone ever get enough unholy creation scrolls to worry about this?

I did; I had four, prompting the question.

Also because the scrolls are inconsistent, sometimes creating a tall abomination, sometimes creating a stumpy, weaker guy.