R/DMsl for monsters

[TwilightPhoenix]

If you just want to outright nerf ranged combat more (they just lost enchanted ammo), one thing to do might be to give some monsters Repel and Deflect Missiles. Some monsters could also know a (monster-only) spell that replicates the effects of the Reflection brand. No amount of kiting would make a difference in those cases.

[sardonica]

That is an amazing idea. Removing enchantment from Ammo has actually brought a lot of difference from Ranged. Give monsters of different types some aspect of RMsl or DMsl, based on either "evade" or "magic." That would be beautiful. We should split this thread off to debate these changes. I'll wait a couple days and if an admin doesn't split, I'll make a new thread.

[njvack]

Your wish is my command

[evilmike]

Monster DMsl exists sort of. It's a flag that monsters can have, rather than a spell. You can think of it like a permanent DMsl buff. Kirke has it, so do spriggan air mages. Maybe some others (I'm just going by memory).

[TwilightPhoenix]

Maybe on stuff like a monster version of a Centaur Arcane Marksman? Most players wouldn't be able to outrun it so just walking away wouldn't be an option. Sure, there's teleportation and blinking, but that's a whole 'nother can of worms.

[sardonica]

I think the "buff" should be permanent and should be inversely related to size: (i.e. want to pick off 1 Bee at a time standing in a corridor, with your longbow? You will miss more than you will hit)

[smock]

The typical response to this kind of monster spell is to go away and wait until it expires, so if it's an expiring spell rather than the permanent flag it needs to only be on monsters where you can't really do that.

Sure, monsters buffs are only interesting if you choose not to run away. One might say that Maurice is poorly designed because you can just go away until his invisibility wears out, but I think Maurice is among the more interesting uniques. I get your point, though.

Perhaps the addition of of rsml and dsml would be more palatable they were only cast by monsters after being hit by a missile or spell. For example, it would be flavorful for a monster wizard to cast dmsl after getting hit by your arrow and not be grounds to retreat.

[sardonica]

Monsters already have EV.

So do players. Let's remove RMsl and DMsl then.

[Blade]

Monsters already have EV.

So do players. Let's remove RMsl and DMsl then.

His point, which you so conveniently missed, is that size-based R/DMsl would be silly, because size-based evasion already exists.

[sardonica]

Monsters already have EV.

So do players. Let's remove RMsl and DMsl then.

His point, which you so conveniently missed, is that size-based R/DMsl would be silly, because size-based evasion already exists.

Make size-based evasion matter a lot more for ranged than for melee.

[Blade]

Make size-based evasion matter a lot more for ranged than for melee.

That makes no sense, whether real-world or gameplay. It is just as hard to hit that small thing with your gigantic axe than it is to hit it with your arrow. Small weapons, such as daggers, which would be easier to hit them with, already have significant accuracy bonuses. Everything with this is fine as-is.

[TwilightPhoenix]

Well, actually it does make sense. It's harder to pick out and aim at a target the farther away it is, especially if it's a small target. While having distance-based EV vs missiles would lead to degenerate gameplay as explained in another topic, it does make a bit more sense for missiles. That small kiler bee is a smaller target when it's way over there.

Whether it's a good idea or not is still debatable.

[mageykun]

Bees are already fairly dangerous and hard to hit in the early game. Hitting them at range- either to chip away at their hp once or twice before they reach melee, or even better, to poison them, is a very common tactic. I mean, bees (and ogres) are pretty much the reason you end up carrying a blowgun around for a while. And even then, misses are not an uncommon experience. I don't really understand why you think bees aren't tough enough and need a magic rMissile to make early missile tactics less effective.

[TwilightPhoenix]

I think bees were just used as an example. I imagine the size-based EV bonus vs missiles would apply to stuff like bats, (monster) Spriggans, Orbs of Destruction, dancing weapons, wasps, rats, and other small stuff.

[sardonica]

I think bees were just used as an example. I imagine the size-based EV bonus vs missiles would apply to stuff like bats, (monster) Spriggans, Orbs of Destruction, dancing weapons, wasps, rats, and other small stuff.

Thanks. Someone finally gets it. I wonder if a dev could weigh in tho, so I know if this idea is quixotic or not.

Can I tell you why I came to post about this topic?

It's because ranged is broken, and hard. If a melee weapon were broken like this, people would complain, but no one likes to pick up ammo so no one seems to have messed around with this.

[galehar]

Ranged combat is ridiculously overpowered but that can be solved without adding unintuitive, opaque, and blatantly inconsistent mechanics.

Indeed. And some work is being done in this sense. Rewriting and rebalancing ranged combat is becoming a goal for 0.11. Removed missile enchantment is just a first step.

[sardonica]

Ranged combat is ridiculously overpowered but that can be solved without adding unintuitive, opaque, and blatantly inconsistent mechanics.

So show us how, oh "minmay".

[sanka]

I actually agree with sardonica in this question.

If ranged combat is generally overpowered, that can be simply solved by decreasing the damage or something. But I think that diversing enemies against certain types of attacks are a very good tool to nerf it.

I myself do not like attacks that very effective to just all type of enemies, so you can defeat everything just repeating the same action over and over. Melee of course does not have this problem - you need to go close, and this force you to use tactics a lot. If hovever your attack is equally effective from anywhere, than this is lost - it sounds a good idea to make other barriers you need to get trough. And this has nothing to do with overall power.

Of course you also has the other possibility to make ranged combat weak enough that switching back to melee is a good option against everything who is next to you, simply because melee is more effective. In this case additional type of enemies seems not so important.

[KoboldLord]

Part of the problem, however, is that ranged combat with a launcher is currently so unpleasantly tedious that the vast majority of players won't bother with it even when it's far more powerful than any other option. The devteam could nerf it, but there's hardly anybody willing to play it to see if the balance improves in the process. That's why the devteam is trying to fix the tedium and worrying about balance later. Maybe the problem will fix itself.

[galehar]

If ranged combat is generally overpowered, that can be simply solved by decreasing the damage or something.

The problem with ranged combat is not just general overpoweredness, but also complexity, and brand behaviours. It's being changed to be more like melee combat.

But I think that diversing enemies against certain types of attacks are a very good tool to nerf it.

It sounds good on paper, but in practise, it creates uninteresting complexity. You have to remember that those specific monsters are vulnerable/resistant to this specific type of damage or attack. People already have a hard time remembering which weapons cut off hydra heads. Brands and resistances are enough. Adding resistances to damage or attack type is too much.

Of course you also has the other possibility to make ranged combat weak enough that switching back to melee is a good option against everything who is next to you, simply because melee is more effective.

Yes, that's probably a good way to balance it.

[galehar]

That's why the devteam is trying to fix the tedium and worrying about balance later.

With the removal of ammo enchantment, I'd say the tedium is mostly fixed. Interface could be improved further, but it's minor now. Balance and code sanity are the focus now.

[Blade]

Regarding the tedium, it gets a lot better when you realize that you can press tab and fire arrows. This might sound silly, but it's an initially unintuitive aspect that makes things a lot more pleasant in general. I agree with galehar that it's mostly fixed with the removal of ammo enchantment, as long as people use tab and not f -> -> -> enter for every monster.

[sardonica]

Ranged combat is ridiculously overpowered but that can be solved without adding unintuitive, opaque, and blatantly inconsistent mechanics.

So show us how, oh "minmay".

Make it do less damage.

Or, you know, continue to discuss a solution that doesn't completely ignore the problems which people actually have with ranged, which isn't damage but differentiating it further from melee....

[Blade]

Actually, the problem people -actually- have with ranged is that it does too much damage. Why on earth would it need to be differentiated further from melee, when it's already fundamentally vastly different?

So, you know, let's think about nerfing it in sensible ways, rather than silly ones.

[BlackSheep]

Agreed, the ability to deal more damage than most melee weapons from a distance is a problem. Crawl's damage code is not trivial, changing it will take time and experimentation. Be patient.

[XuaXua]

Currently all ammo is +3 enchantment for purposes of damage (or is that accuracy? Or both?) and breakage.

If I'm to guess, are those up to three factors currently using a single variable to define them? If so, the first step in reform is to separate them.

[BlackSheep]

Accuracy and damage have their own variables. They're just being set to 3 for the purposes of the attack and mulch formulae. There's no variable specific to mulching. Enchantment level and missile type are the two variable factors in that check.

[galehar]

Currently all ammo is +3 enchantment for purposes of damage (or is that accuracy? Or both?) and breakage.

If I'm to guess, are those up to three factors currently using a single variable to define them? If so, the first step in reform is to separate them.

mulch formula is independent of the fake +3 enchantment (which is min(3, skill) to be precise). I was about to remove it, but kilobyte has started working on the ranged rewrite, and it would create a git conflict. Hopefully, it doesn't take too long, because this +3 is making things much worse, especially in the early game.

[BlackSheep]

Kilobyte rocks. Just sayin'...

[XuaXua]

Where to go for best insight as to new rules, the wiki?

[galehar]

Where to go for best insight as to new rules, the wiki?

I've answered in a new thread.

[sardonica]

now that ranged is changing so much, I think we should stop discussing RMsl/Dmsl for monsters until things are settled.