Ranged combat

[galehar]

the ammo enchantment kludge has been brought to a more reasonable level. It's now min(3, skill /3). Be aware that it's just a temporary thing while ranged code is being rewritten.

What can be expected from it:
launched ammo don't have base hit/dam anymore, only thrown ones do. Ammo only provide brand.
Launcher stats can be compared to melee weapon stats.
Removal of overlap between ammo and launcher brands. No freezing/flaming missiles and no launcher of venom. Launcher/missile brand can stack.
Elemmental brands work like melee. They add elemental damage on top of physical one instead of turning the attack into a pure elemental beam.

[nicolae]

Removal of overlap between ammo and launcher brands. No freezing/flaming missiles and no launcher of venom. Launcher/missile brand can stack.

Does this mean that, with missiles of venom and a launcher of flaming, that players can replicate Nessos' flaming poison arrows?

Elemmental brands work like melee. They add elemental damage on top of physical one instead of turning the attack into a pure elemental beam.

Will they still cancel out clouds of the opposing element?

[njvack]

launched ammo don't have base hit/dam anymore, only thrown ones do. Ammo only provide brand.

Does this mean that unbranded bullets and stones will deal the same damage when shot from a sling? If so, it might be worth removing unbranded sling bullets...

Also... absolutely no dual-branded fire/frost missiles? An unrand that stacks the opposing element to fire/frost missiles ("The Bow of Frozen Fire"?) might be fun...

[galehar]

Removal of overlap between ammo and launcher brands. No freezing/flaming missiles and no launcher of venom. Launcher/missile brand can stack.

Does this mean that, with missiles of venom and a launcher of flaming, that players can replicate Nessos' flaming poison arrows?

Yes.

Elemmental brands work like melee. They add elemental damage on top of physical one instead of turning the attack into a pure elemental beam.

Will they still cancel out clouds of the opposing element?

We haven't sorted out every little details! This behaviour is likely to be removed.

launched ammo don't have base hit/dam anymore, only thrown ones do. Ammo only provide brand.

Does this mean that unbranded bullets and stones will deal the same damage when shot from a sling?

Stone is a special case. It's the only missile that can be either thrown or launched. The idea is to make it work like an "inverted brand" when launched, dealing 2/3 damage compared to bullets.

Also... absolutely no dual-branded fire/frost missiles? An unrand that stacks the opposing element to fire/frost missiles ("The Bow of Frozen Fire"?) might be fun...

Currently, they just cancel out. Frost arrows fired with a bow of flame are like unbranded arrows.

[pratamawirya]

Sounds really interesting.

[umrain]

I saw this mentioned somewhere a while ago, but can we get rid of unidentified missile brands? It usually takes a single shot to ID a brand with no real risk of bad effects, so identifying them is just a bit of tedium. With enchantments gone now, sure, you can carry a stack of each type to merge on pickup, but why? And needles and few brands like venom and steel are already pre-identified so it'd make things more consistent. Since there's a rewrite going on I thought I'd mention it.

I really like the sound of the changes mentioned so far.

[njvack]

I saw this mentioned somewhere a while ago, but can we get rid of unidentified missile brands?

http://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl/commit ... dd082bb6f7

[Grimm]

These changes are great. A hearty thank you to the devs. Launcher/ammo brand overlap has always irritated me - now I can relax.

[nicolae]

Stone is a special case. It's the only missile that can be either thrown or launched. The idea is to make it work like an "inverted brand" when launched, dealing 2/3 damage compared to bullets.

Would that mean a stone does less damage when slung than when thrown, or do I have it backwards?

[mageykun]

Stone is a special case. It's the only missile that can be either thrown or launched. The idea is to make it work like an "inverted brand" when launched, dealing 2/3 damage compared to bullets.

Would that mean a stone does less damage when slung than when thrown, or do I have it backwards?

I would expect

thrown rock < slung rock < sling bullet < steel bullet

to be the order. Since the sling lets you put more speed on the rock pretty easily. The bullets are better since they're deliberately shaped stone or metal for optimal slinging.

[galehar]

Stone is a special case. It's the only missile that can be either thrown or launched. The idea is to make it work like an "inverted brand" when launched, dealing 2/3 damage compared to bullets.

Would that mean a stone does less damage when slung than when thrown, or do I have it backwards?

Of course it's the other way around. For example stones will have base damage 2, sling 6 when firing bullets, but reduced to 4 when firing stone (final numbers might be different).

[XuaXua]

What about weapon materials, like steel and silver ( though I believe silver utility was nuked a bit when undead vulnerability was removed)?

[galehar]

What about weapon materials, like steel and silver ( though I believe silver utility was nuked a bit when undead vulnerability was removed)?

I think material brands are the best kind for ammo. With the removal of flame and frost, arrows are a bit lacking. Steel doesn't really work for arrows, but silver does. We could add a broadhead arrow brand too (higher damage and bleeding).

[nicolae]

What about weapon materials, like steel and silver ( though I believe silver utility was nuked a bit when undead vulnerability was removed)?

I think material brands are the best kind for ammo. With the removal of flame and frost, arrows are a bit lacking. Steel doesn't really work for arrows, but silver does. We could add a broadhead arrow brand too (higher damage and bleeding).

Decapitation brand, as seen here.

[roctavian]

Just wanted to leave this here for everyone's consideration.

[Jabberwocky]

Decapitation brand, as seen here.

The problem is Crawl has so few birds that that wouldn't work all that well. The blades prevent it from penetrating well.

Just wanted to leave this here for everyone's consideration.

No.

[XuaXua]

What about weapon materials, like steel and silver ( though I believe silver utility was nuked a bit when undead vulnerability was removed)?

I think material brands are the best kind for ammo. With the removal of flame and frost, arrows are a bit lacking. Steel doesn't really work for arrows, but silver does. We could add a broadhead arrow brand too (higher damage and bleeding).

I don't think there ever was a steel brand for arrows; it was just steel and silver bolts and bullets.

Silver-tipped arrows would be cool, but since we can't enchant them and they would have standard mulch rates, give them more utility by adding back the nerfed undead damage (100% against chaos as it currently is, 50% against undead to nerf, but still provide utility).

I would assume steel still reduces mulching? Does it also cause more damage, or might steel be considered default material for penetrating brand?

Broadhead brand for bleeding is an excellent idea. Could it work for both arrows and bolts; there's no reason it wouldn't be applicable for xbows.

Is there a brand which might cause more damage, but be penalized to-hit and vice-versa?

What about a brand which has a reduced range?

And totally Boxing Glove Arrow, yes.

[Grimm]

Would it be interesting to give bow characters the opportunity to build up a quiver of "trick" arrows?

[Jabberwocky]

Would it be interesting to give bow characters the opportunity to build up a quiver of "trick" arrows?

While it would be interesting, I'm not sure it really would be all that good.

[Grimm]

interesting = good for the game

[galehar]

I don't think there ever was a steel brand for arrows; it was just steel and silver bolts and bullets.

I know. I meant that adding silver arrows is ok but not steel arrows.

Silver-tipped arrows would be cool, but since we can't enchant them and they would have standard mulch rates, give them more utility by adding back the nerfed undead damage (100% against chaos as it currently is, 50% against undead to nerf, but still provide utility).

Silver has a very narrow target, but some of the vulnerable monsters are the most dangerous, so it's still useful.

I would assume steel still reduces mulching? Does it also cause more damage, or might steel be considered default material for penetrating brand?

Yes by a lot (/10), yes and what?

Broadhead brand for bleeding is an excellent idea. Could it work for both arrows and bolts; there's no reason it wouldn't be applicable for xbows.

Bolts already have plenty of good brands. Let's try to differentiate instead.

[XuaXua]

Regarding (Green Arrow/Hawkeye-style) TRICK ARROWS: Might have too many arrows that duplicate wand effects. Granted, it's a case of evocations vs bow skill and the chance of encountering the appropriate items.

I wonder if it wouldn't be too powerful to have, like Pain, Distortion, and Holy brands on weapons, certain deities could bless brands to missiles; reaping from Yred, Poison from Fedhas(?), dispersal from Nemelex, etc. Throwing that out there; obviously, what I'm suggesting is completely offhand and nowhere near what an actual proposal might be.

[XuaXua]

I would assume steel still reduces mulching? Does it also cause more damage, or might steel be considered default material for penetrating brand?

Yes by a lot (/10), yes and what?

I was working along the lines expecting possibly your first and likely second answer to be "no". If it was either, using penetration was me tossing out a last-ditch alternative "save the material type" suggestion.

Obviously since both were "yes", the penetration suggestion is unnecessary.

[Jabberwocky]

interesting = good for the game

Adding parrots that had +5 aptitudes for everything as a playable species would be interesting, but I don't think it would be good for the game. Interesting is good, but if you add everything interesting, it's bad.

[Grimm]

I misspoke. Cut me some slack, Jack!

[XuaXua]

Nemelex's Quiver

Xom's Quiver

[nicolae]

Bolts already have plenty of good brands. Let's try to differentiate instead.

What about some sling bullet-only brands? For example, ricocheting sling bullets that can bounce off walls, or sling bullets of giant-slaying.

[XuaXua]

Speed brand applied to missiles; increase mulching rate, no inherent damage reduction penalty, but hey, super-fast shots!

[XuaXua]

Bolts already have plenty of good brands. Let's try to differentiate instead.

sling bullets of giant-slaying.

Yes.

[KoboldLord]

Would it be interesting to give bow characters the opportunity to build up a quiver of "trick" arrows?

Considering a main focus of the current reform is to simplify inventory management for bow characters, adding in the potential to build up a collection of rare consumables as part of bow use is probably not a good direction to take.

[mageykun]

How about some brand pruning?

I'd love to see needles of sickness go. Slowing too, it's redundant with curare (...and slowing is oddly rarer, even though it's clearly inferior).

[smock]

Missile inventory management is a lot easier now that enchantments are gone. (Remember back when ammo had racial brands, too... ug!) I think there would be room for additional brands if they are well-designed. (Needles of sickness are not well-designed, IMHO.)

I like the idea of sling bullets of giant slaying. Arrows of dragon slaying, for example, might be nice too. I would welcome additional ways to differentiate throwing, bows, xbows and slings. At present they're differentiated in some important ways (str vs dex; dispersal vs penetration/steel, etc.) but I think more could be done. For example, that thrown weapons lack fire/frost brands while sling is good. Setting wooden arrows on fire might be more flavorful than setting bolts on fire. Poisoned sling bullets could be removed, as the bullet presumably does not break the flesh to allow the poison into the bloodstream.

At first glance putting pain and distortion on launchers sounds fun. However, these brands are very strong. Allowing holy launchers makes the holy longbow the arguably strongest weapon in extended. I'm afraid that pain or distortion on a launcher would make for overpowered launchers in the early and midgame. At the very least a pain, distortion, or anti-magic launcher would have to be toned down (eg, reduced chance of a brand effect.)

[Jabberwocky]

Poisoned sling bullets could be removed, as the bullet presumably does not break the flesh to allow the poison into the bloodstream.

I must disagree with this. You are launching a piece of stone or metal designed to kill at high speeds. My guess is that against any unarmoured opponent you will break the skin. Having it work against armoured targets doesn't make much sense though.

[smock]

True enough. Discussing realism is funny enough int the context of a rogue-like; introducing unrealistic realism is even weirder!

For what it's worth, ranged still seems overpowered in trunk. (Actually, it seems stronger.) I know it's a work in progress, so please just consider this my (perhaps superfluous) two cents -- if I'm not mistaken this is known to the devs working in ranged combat.

[XuaXua]

Poisoned sling bullets could be removed, as the bullet presumably does not break the flesh to allow the poison into the bloodstream.

I must disagree with this. You are launching a piece of stone or metal designed to kill at high speeds. My guess is that against any unarmoured opponent you will break the skin. Having it work against armoured targets doesn't make much sense though.

Poison is skin contact poison.

Oooh, ACIDIC MISSILES.

[TwilightPhoenix]

Based on all of the racial-slaying brands being tossed around, gave me the idea for a new unrand. Specifically, a sling of slime/jelly slaying, with the flavor text mentioning something about being designed to throw normal rocks to hunt pesky jellies or something like that. I say unrand since that seems a bit silly for a normal brand.

Poisoned sling bullets could be removed, as the bullet presumably does not break the flesh to allow the poison into the bloodstream.

You must have never been hit by a good-sized rock backed by sufficient force before. A thrown rock can easily draw blood with enough force. A projectile specifically designed to be fired from a sling would be more than capable of doing so.

Edit: I am slow.