Missile enchantment

[CommanderC]

Yesterday, I read elliptic's idea about removing ammo enchantment, and I love it. Actually, I don't think it's too difficult to balance:

1) Remove completely ammo enchantment
2) Use effective enchantment in all the formulae, which can be defined as:

  Code:

effective_enchantment=min(4, launcher_skill/4) // the cap could be 5 or 6, but I think ranged combat is already very powerful.


3) Mulch rate: I'm not sure about this one. Maybe, we could use effective_enchantment+2.

I think this change would make ranged combat less tedious. In the early game the power of ranged combat would be very similar to what it is now, and in the endgame it would be a (needed) nerf.

[twelwe]

Don't think for one minute that you're going to take away my +9 large rocks

[snow]

I'm sure if enchantment was removed ammo would be improved. If we compare the number of players who use melee combat compared to those using ranged combat (excluding conjurations) it's clear that something needs to be changed.

[kefir645]

People don't use ranged much, because it's a bit tedious, not because it's less powerful then melee. It's insanely powerful, almost (almost due to no AOE) as good as casting and can certainly survive a nerf if it reduces tedium. elliptic's suggestion seems pretty good.

[tasonir]

But then all my unarmed melee characters who enchant ranged ammo as a backup weapon will really have nothing to use enchant weapon scrolls on! Idea: scrolls enchant your hands at 1/2 the success rate of weaponry!

[mageykun]

So long as we offset with some other means to reduce mulching it sounds good to me. Saves on tedious inventory micromanagement.

I'd suggest we have mulching depend on launcher enchantment, skill, and/or dex. Needles would probably need the most consideration (everything else can probably adsorb the nerf of an increased mulch if we allow it just fine). Building a successful needle-stabber is very dependent on getting the brittle little things enchanted enough not to mulch constantly. Dropping needle-enchantment with no offset would make the build pretty much unplayable as is.

[XuaXua]

+3 Blowgun of Preservation

[zasvid]

Add quivers, enchant them instead.

[Jeremiah]

I'm not sure if I have seen this on another thread here, in the dev wiki or in another game completely, but one thing that has been suggested somewhere, and that I quite like, is to just remove (unbranded) ammo completely, and have it assumed that the character (and monsters) have an essentially unlimited supply of basic arrows/bolts.

This would remove most of the tedium of collecting arrows after a fight and managing inventory, although the base damage of ranged weapons should probably be nerfed as well.

You could still have branded ammo, though maybe it should be much rarer and with 100% mulch rate, but significantly more powerful than unbranded ammo, so that it becomes a valuable resource rather than something you drop on the floor.

Needles may well have to be treated differently as they are always branded, and I'm not really sure how any of this would apply to throwable ammo like javelins and large rocks.

[galehar]

I really don't like the idea of giving unlimited unenchanted missiles. And how is collecting missiles tedious? Autopickup does it for you. Managing inventory is tedious, and removing missile enchantment would help a lot.

[TwilightPhoenix]

Unless something changed in trunk, auto-pickup just picks up the stuff you shot, not more ammo. You still have to pick up more ammo on your own. Though removing enchantment would remove all the tedious "test each pile of arrows on a wall somewhere safe, sort them based on enchantment, and then manage your piles while enchanting until you have 900 +9 arrows".

[galehar]

Unless something changed in trunk, auto-pickup just picks up the stuff you shot, not more ammo.

Yes, and I was answering to this:

This would remove most of the tedium of collecting arrows after a fight

But collecting all ammos, not just the one you shot is one line of autopickup config. You can also use some lua magic to have it automatically activated based on skills.

[nago]

I'd like the removal of ammo enchantment, which is utterly annoying - as long as mulching and increased damage are considered in some other ways.

Unless something changed in trunk, auto-pickup just picks up the stuff you shot, not more ammo. You still have to pick up more ammo on your own. Though removing enchantment would remove all the tedious "test each pile of arrows on a wall somewhere safe, sort them based on enchantment, and then manage your piles while enchanting until you have 900 +9 arrows".

As already said by galehar, you can add a simple line on your RC and you'll autopick all object of one kind.

I'm actually using this function (to put in RC) to pick up ammo only when training an appropriate skill. Creditor to the creator, rriegs. If it doesn't work, I forgot to copy something from my rc

  Code:

# Ammo autopickup, adapted from egopickup by rriegs
{
local pickup_missile = true
local pickup_snakable = true
local pickup_sandblast = true

local function init_spells()
   local sp_list = {}

   for _, sp_name in ipairs(you.spells()) do
      sp_list[sp_name] = true
   end

   return sp_list
end

local function ammo_pickup(it, name)
   local class = it.class(true)

   local sp = init_spells()

   local top_ranged_skill = math.max(
      you.skill("Slings"),
      you.skill("Bows"),
      you.skill("Crossbows"))

   if pickup_missile then
      -- Pick up ammunition needed by our skills
      if class == "missile" then
         if you.skill("Slings") > top_ranged_skill / 3 then
            if name:find("stone")  then return true end
            if name:find("bullet") then return true end
         end
         if you.skill("Bows") > top_ranged_skill / 3 then
            if name:find("arrow") then return true end
         end
         if you.skill("Crossbows") > top_ranged_skill / 3 then
            if name:find("bolt") then return true end
         end
      end
   end

   if pickup_sandblast then
      if sp["Sticks to Snakes"] and it.snakable then
        if name:find("arrow") then
           return true
        end
     end
  end

  if pickup_snakable then
     if sp["Sandblast"] then
        if name:find("stone") then
           return true
        end
     end
  end

   return false
end

add_autopickup_func(ammo_pickup)
}

[cerebovssquire]

"snakable" is an adjective. TIL

Also, thanks a lot, I've had to mess with my rc a lot lately, commenting and uncommenting the autopickup_exception = <xxx lines depending on the type of ranged character I was playing.

[Jeremiah]

Just to clarify, that when I said

This would remove most of the tedium of collecting arrows after a fight and managing inventory

I was kind of merging the two together, as I view collecting arrows after a fight as part of inventory management. For example if there are only 2 arrows remaining of a stack, they still take up a whole inventory slot, and autopickup will attempt to pick them up even though it may not be worth giving up the slot to keep carrying them.

But yes, as has been pointed out, removing enchantment would largely remove this issue as there would be much fewer separate stacks of ammo with different enchantment levels.

[galehar]

Done.

[sanka]

I must admit I never really understood the intention behind how the ammo mulching works.

If we want ammo to be a resource, then ammo should mulch much more often, and have less of them, to actually force players to converse ammo for the tough fights and use melee or magic. Or (almost) never mulch, but have much-much less of them, so you can only shoot some of them in a fight, then need to gather it.

If you want pure ranged option viable, so ammo is not really a resource, then why we have ammo at all?

Of course I understand that currently ammo is a resource in the early game, and virtually unlimited later, but it's still strange, because it's unlimited in most parts of the game.

[mageykun]

Done.

So... unless I'm reading that wrong, you just nixed ammo enhancement without touching mulch rate? Which means, for now, all ammo will mulch as if it were at +0?

That's fine for now, but I'm thinking needles (of non-poison) at least will need something to compensate. We'll see how the rest goes.

[nicolae]

Done.

So... unless I'm reading that wrong, you just nixed ammo enhancement without touching mulch rate? Which means, for now, all ammo will mulch as if it were at +0?

That's fine for now, but I'm thinking needles (of non-poison) at least will need something to compensate. We'll see how the rest goes.

Separate commit changed the mulch rate too, ammo mulches as if it's +3.

[XuaXua]

So... haven't played it yet, but what's the deal now with nets?

They used to get damaged to negative enchantment by escape, right?

- - -

I do like that enchantment is removed only because floor traps never used enchanted ammo, which I always thought to be a big mistake. A trap with +9 arrows would likely have been more effective than one with +0 arrows.

[galehar]

yes, nets track their used status with enchantment. Code-wise, it will still be the case, but we'll display an adjective like [slightly frayed] or something instead of -x

[TwilightPhoenix]

Ah, good. Now we no longer will have silliness such as unbranded darts potentially taking up to ten separate inventory slots.

[XuaXua]

Then-again, Javelin mulching. I am of the opinion that, with this change, considering thrown daggers and spears and axes do not mulch, steel ammo should no longer mulch and should be slightly rarer or appear in smaller quantities.

[jejorda2]

Done.

CAO is up to 0.11-a0-1801-g3fd757a , is this in effect yet? The description of arrows still states:
"All pieces of ammunition may get destroyed upon impact. Enchantment reduces the chances of such loss.
It can be maximally enchanted to +9."

[galehar]

Then-again, Javelin mulching.

So, what about it? You're aware that the base mulching is half what it used to be? Ammo now mulches like +3 ammo used to.

steel ammo should no longer mulch and should be slightly rarer or appear in smaller quantities.

steel ammo already mulches 1/10 less than normal ammo and is already rare.

CAO is up to 0.11-a0-1801-g3fd757a , is this in effect yet? The description of arrows still states:
"All pieces of ammunition may get destroyed upon impact. Enchantment reduces the chances of such loss.
It can be maximally enchanted to +9."

Yes it is, and good catch. Fixed.

[qululu123]

Hi, this makes using ranged weapons much more appealing, thanks! Just one super bothersome left though, when a bow is equipped, auto exploring will not auto break mushrooms to explore piles of loot, so before auto exploring i always switch to a melee weapon so i dont end up with a couple piles of loot to explore and the message that some places couldnt be checked out.

Would it be possible to teach auto explorer to beat up mushrooms with ranged weapons like it does for melee weapons? Also now i have the line to auto pickup arrows in my config file, but it took me foooooorever to figure that out. Could it be possible to have that line by default in the config file, just commented out, so it would be an easy toggle between auto picking up ranged ammo and not?

[XuaXua]

So... how does this affect divine ammo gifts?

[absolutego]

aside from the other general goodness, you don't need a million different piles for differently enchanted arrows anymore. which means you'll actually pick up some of those gifts when you play a hunter-type. which is good.

[mageykun]

Actually, I was wondering if it would be appropriate to tone done the gifts. Oka/Trog buries you in ammo- and if a much greater percent of that ammo is now useful, we could probably do with less. Possibly merits some testing in trunk.

Also- how do these changes affect ammo using monsters? The +3 is for mulching only, right? We didn't buff every 'taur with vanilla ammo? Or does this go the other way- was there anything that relied on enchantment bonuses that's now lacking them?

[XuaXua]

Also- how do these changes affect ammo using monsters? The +3 is for mulching only, right? We didn't buff every 'taur with vanilla ammo? Or does this go the other way- was there anything that relied on enchantment bonuses that's now lacking them?

It does feel like ammo in general is much more powerful, but that might be a perception. I also would like it confirmed that the +3 is for mulching only because I'm being taken out by sling rocks and taking things down left and right with ranged arrows and no skill, whereas it hasn't seemed like this before.

[XuaXua]

Also, how does this affect Portal Projectile? I mean, I guess it's still a ranged alternative for tloc-using spellcasters, but now there are no longer any enchantment damage enhancers. Does Portal Projectile require a buff to compensate?

[BlackSheep]

The heck? Portal projectile is used to allow smite targeting with missile weapons. The relative damage done by missiles is not the point.

[galehar]

Also- how do these changes affect ammo using monsters?

It doesn't. For now, damage formulae hasn't been touched. They don't just need to be tweaked, they need to be rewritten. Ranged combat implementation is a mess, especially brands. The only thing sane about it is the speed formula.

Also, how does this affect Portal Projectile?[/code]
It doesn't.

Does Portal Projectile require a buff to compensate?

No, why would it? Don't overeact, we haven't nerfed ranged combat into oblivion. It's probably still too powerful.

[smock]

I second XuaXua's comment.

Until this change, a +0 bow with +0 arrows was not especially effective in the early game. It seems to me that now a +0 bow with arrows is very effective.

Has anything else been changed? Or perhaps the change in the mulching rate is helping me play better?

[CommanderC]

Ranged combat is now a lot more powerful in the early game, and this is the reason:
(commit 52340c5ab6b15af47ad0caabb25058528791fe1f)

  Code:

-    ammoHitBonus = item.plus;
-    ammoDamBonus = item.plus2;
+        ammoHitBonus = ammoDamBonus = std::min(3, you.skill_rdiv(sk));


If you have three levels in Bows (or whatever), then it's like if the ammo was +3.

As galehar has explained, the code will be rewritten. This is just a hack.

[jejorda2]

A scroll of identify interacts oddly (and incorrectly, I believe) with the new unenchantable ammo. I read some unidentified scrolls looking to uncurse my ring of hunger, and one of them asked for an object. I didn't have any wands or ammo I intended to keep, so I picked a javelin stack.

I get the messages:
a - 6 javelins
_It was a scroll of identify.

I know that using identify on an identified item gives a "nothing happens" error and doesn't identify the identify scroll.
So the game thinks there was something to identify about the javelins (presumably the enchantment, since steel and poisoned brands are visible from the start) when there isn't. Unless identify revealed that they aren't penetration? I don't remember how identifying penetration works.

I think what should have happened is the "nothing happens" error, because there was nothing to know about the item that I didn't already know.

[neil]

jejorda2: Fixed in trunk (0.11-a0-1849-g7fb9bc4).

[XuaXua]

  Code:

+        ammoHitBonus = ammoDamBonus = std::min(3, you.skill_rdiv(sk));


As galehar has explained, the code will be rewritten. This is just a hack.

Ammo is much too dangerous in trunk right now.

[XuaXua]

Now that Missile Enchantment has been removed, when playing Tiles Mode, it is not visually apparent whether floor ammo is branded, since there is no indicator of runed/glowing.

Since brand enchantments are now automatically known on missiles before pickup, I suggest using the branded tile that is shown in inventory to represent the ammo tile as it lay on the floor.

I say this as I almost recently bypassed some exploding darts on D1, dismissing them as regular darts until I moused over them and their name appeared onscreen.

[JasonMel]

CAO is up to 0.11-a0-1801-g3fd757a , is this in effect yet? The description of arrows still states:
"All pieces of ammunition may get destroyed upon impact. Enchantment reduces the chances of such loss.
It can be maximally enchanted to +9."

Yes it is, and good catch. Fixed.

Along the same lines, weapon enchantment scrolls still talk about the benefits of enchanting ammo. I know for a fact that Enchant Weapon II does, as of today.

[Edit: In fact, you might consider mentioning specifically that ammo can't be enchanted.]

[Kate]

Done, thanks for pointing it out. (Doesn't seem necessary to explicitly mention that they can't be enchanted - they're certainly not weapons).

[roctavian]

Was thinking of making new brand tiles for ammo, might not get to it for a couple days but could someone throw together a list of what ammo brands appear on what ammunition types?

[mageykun]

  Code:

         dispersal   exploding   flame   frost   penetration   poisoned   silver   steel   other*   returning
arrows       +                     +       +                       +
bolts                              +       +          +            +         +       +
bullets                  +         +       +                       +         +       +
darts        +           +         +       +                       +                 +
needles                                                            +                         +
javelins                                              +            +         +       +                  +
daggers, hand axes, spears                                                                              +

*curare, paralysis, sleep, confusion, slow, sickness, and frenzy


Okay, I think that's the complete ranged ammo table. Discounting brand/ammo combinations you can only get in wizmode.

(I know daggers, hand axes, and spears can have other brands, but they don't kick in when thrown, I believe. So I left them out).

Edit: Oh, and you can get holy wrath, but only on a TSO blessed bow or crossbow. And the storm bow gives electrocution. But those are launcher brands, not ammo ones.

[roctavian]

I think I might make an exploding arrow tile, just in case somebody thinks that's a good idea.

[XuaXua]

Are the scythe unrandart and Zongoldruk the only reaping brand weapons now? I miss the pack of centaurs all armed with reaping for no good reason.

[Galefury]

Was thinking of making new brand tiles for ammo, might not get to it for a couple days but could someone throw together a list of what ammo brands appear on what ammunition types?

Tiles for branded ammo sound great, but you might want to wait until after the ranged combat rewrite. Some ammo brands might get removed or added. Frost and flame ammo removal was specifically mentioned by galehar.

[Deimos]

I think its enough to just have one tile for brands (for each type of ammo; bullets/arrows/bolts/needles). Once your attention is drawn to the fact magical ammo is on the ground, you probably will check what it is.

It just seems like a lot of tiles to memorize; one for each brand, and a new set for each ammo type, when crawl could just say "hey this is a magical arrow, look at me".

[XuaXua]

I think its enough to just have one tile for brands (for each type of ammo; bullets/arrows/bolts/needles). Once your attention is drawn to the fact magical ammo is on the ground, you probably will check what it is.

It just seems like a lot of tiles to memorize; one for each brand, and a new set for each ammo type, when crawl could just say "hey this is a magical arrow, look at me".

What is this? I thought the tiles already exist : they appear branded appropriately in your inventory. The only place the brand does not appear (visually; it DOES appear textually as of trunk, if I'm not incorrect) are on missile tiles on the floor.

[nicolae]

What is this? I thought the tiles already exist : they appear branded appropriately in your inventory. The only place the brand does not appear (visually; it DOES appear textually as of trunk, if I'm not incorrect) are on missile tiles on the floor.

The brand symbols for weapons, missiles, and armour don't appear on items on the floor.