Vaults Rune

[snow]

I think it would be interesting if the Vaults rune was removed.

Hear me out. This would force the player to do either Slime or go for a Pan or Hell rune which is about the same difficulty but gives way more choices. Clearing Vaults 8 would also be an interesting choice because of the loot and experience. I mean seriously Vaults is kind of like Lair (both have sub branches) and Vaults having a rune is just as lame as if Lair had a rune.

I'm thinking if a new rune branch is added it could be of Pan or Hell level difficulty and be a Vaults sub branch instead of the endlessly growing number of Lair sub branches. I know I'm thinking a bit long term here but having a rune in the Vaults is really hurting the game.

Vaults could also be cut down to 6 floors if removing the rune makes a 3 rune game too long (at the moment a 3 rune game is about 2 to 3 hours).

[KoboldLord]

I don't think forcing weaker players to run through Hell or other parts of the post-endgame is a desirable goal. Not only is this a mean turn against newbie players who are still looking for a first win, it cheapens the optional content if every last 3-Rune character goes through it.

The Silver Rune is guarded by threats that are mostly familiar to the unspoiled player, and the challenge comes from the density of encounters and the high median challenge each additional threat presents. The 3-Rune newbie player can use the skills and equipment they've spent the bulk of the game accumulating towards the goal of getting that last plot coupon, rather than gathering equipment and skills that will then be partially discarded after the danger zone has been cleared.

Also, removing the Silver Rune makes the Abyssal Rune the new third Rune that is nearly always the best option. I don't want to take 80% of my 3-Rune characters through the Abyss, at least not on purpose.

[crate]

The silver rune is already more difficult to get than the slimy or abyssal or (rarely) golden rune for some characters.

If you are bothered by runes that you will get every game then removing one of the two easy lair runes would make more sense, though of course that has other bad effects.

Personally I think it is fine as-is.

[white_noise]

Actually I thought that Vaults has no rune, after I didn't find one in the Lair. So this was a nice surprise. But I would really prefer adding rune to L:8, than removing it from from V:8. It feels like there should be rune, or at least something. Sure the place need to be much more difficult for it. But spawn more dragons, hydras and other nasty beasts in the forest area and it will be. Also some unique greater beast probably is in order...

[XuaXua]

Add a rune at the end of all branches that are missing them (Elf, Orc, Crypt, Hall of Blades) and change Zot entry requirement to 7 runes.

[dpeg]

I've never heard this proposal; it is certainly not absurd. For example, Elf used to have a rune, but that was remove pre-DCSS because Elf is attractive for its loot already. In this sense, it might be sensible to give a rune to Crypt (replacing or down-grading the loot there). The goal would be that for a typical three-runing game, the rune branches carry little loot but are otherwise interesting, as is true for Orc, Elf (and would be for Vaults).

However, in my opinion the much more pressing problem is the pendulum. Especially for loot-poor branches like Swamp and Snake, players will hold off for as long as possible, which makes it really hard to set up the difficulty properly. There area two ideas about this: stick (rune lock) and carrot (put some loot for the branch on level 1, visible behind foolproof glass, to be obtained with the rune).

Of course, Vaults is the one early branch that does not suffer from this problem which indicates that --barring other changes-- the rune should be left there.

[twelwe]

If we put an incentive behind a door on the first level of a branch, it probably should not be visible. If a player can see the item is undesirable to their role, then the effort to prevent players from delaying those branches until they are overpowered will be futile - the incentive to finish what was started is no more. Brogue has too many locks (do you pick something you can see and touch in room number one, or take the key from that room, and your chances, with room number two with items you can't see at all?) and crawl not enough.

[galehar]

If we put an incentive behind a door on the first level of a branch, it probably should not be visible. If a player can see the item is undesirable to their role

And on the other hand, if they see a useful item, or more likely, a potentially useful item (a book, a good weapon of unknown brand, randart jewellery...) then it works. Most good items aren't id on sight. Letting the player see the loot makes the strategic decision of choosing the branch order a bit more interesting.

[Galefury]

Probably a 50/50 solution would be best. Some loot visible, some not. This even works for small amounts of loot, as long as there are at least two items. Having several themes (library, armory, lab, similar to troves) and announcing only the theme, but not showing the items, or only showing unidentified ones, could work very well too.

People who got the runelock-like banner in the last tourney mostly didn't like it much, saying it made the branch end very interesting, but made much of the rest of the midgame pretty dull. But I think this has been discussed a lot already.

[inkydood]

...put some loot for the branch on level 1, visible behind foolproof glass, to be obtained with the rune

This solution is...inelegant. If you want to use incentives, add loot to the rune vaults. Veteran/spoiled players won't need to see it know about it, and unspoiled players are more likely to dive into the Lair branches early anyway; they don't know loot isn't down there. They're as likely to clear Swamp expecting treasure as they are to clear Elf expecting a rune, anyway.

[snow]

Loot isn't that much of an incentive. Shoals already has some crazy good loot and you don't see people doing it early for that.

My main issue is that there are 15 runes in the game and almost everyone goes for the same 3.

Also it would be nice if Vaults had randomly selected sub branches like Lair. It would suck if the Lair rune was just on the floor at the end of Lair and players only ever did Shoals and Snake for the loot and experience. That's basically how Vaults are now: the rune is just on the floor at the end and Crypt and Blade are only done for loot and experience.

It's just sort of disappointing.

[njvack]

My main issue is that there are 15 runes in the game and almost everyone goes for the same 3.

This is partly because people are silly.

As crate points out, if you have rMut and maybe Stasis and Preservation (or otherwise proof gear), Slime is fine. Abyss is generally not a problem if you can take V:8 and fly -- and I'm hopeful that in the medium term, Abyss will not be boring anymore. For a few builds, Tomb is perhaps easier (and almost certainly more rewarding) than V:8.

From there, yeah: Pan is harder (though you can often treat it a bit like Abyss and run from everything) and the Hells are hardest.

[XuaXua]

As crate points out, if you have rMut and maybe Stasis and Preservation (or otherwise proof gear), Slime is fine

Acid blobs and blue jellies are scary.

[palin]

If you can do Tomb you definitely can do V:8... and yes, I don't meddle with Slime often because you are not always getting proof gear, and Jellies are hard!

[cerebovssquire]

That isn't necessarily true for characters who have Dispel Undead and Kiku's torment protection. And Slime will often be easier should you get the right gear (as you imply yourself). Abyss is nearly always easier in my experience.

[palin]

That isn't necessarily true for characters who have Dispel Undead and Kiku's torment protection. And Slime will often be easier should you get the right gear (as you imply yourself). Abyss is nearly always easier in my experience.

I agree with abyss, the other two conditions are too situational to be generalised. It's like saying Shoals it's better for merfolk and octopodes...

[cerebovssquire]

That isn't necessarily true for characters who have Dispel Undead and Kiku's torment protection. And Slime will often be easier should you get the right gear (as you imply yourself). Abyss is nearly always easier in my experience.

I agree with abyss, the other two conditions are too situational to be generalised. It's like saying Shoals it's better for merfolk and octopodes...

I didn't generalise! My point is that for specific characters, which I described, the easiest three-rune selection may vary. Obviously I don't think every character should do Abyss/Slime/Tomb. I disagree with

My main issue is that there are 15 runes in the game and almost everyone goes for the same 3.

or at least that it is optimal to do so.

[palin]

Oh I see. I usually try to get one of the "classical" threes plus abyss if I find myself there. I sometimes go to Crypt, Tomb and Slime but not on the last level if I feel I need something but I usually not find anything worth the effort. I most always do Vestibule of Hell because there are no Hell effects.

[KoboldLord]

Tomb is easy enough for any character that has a repeatable source of Haste, a way to remove summons, and some non-noisy ranged attack that works against mummies. It's just boring, and fiddly, and I don't recommend it for new players looking for their first win.

[snow]

I always figured that players do Vaults 8 instead of the Abyss because the experience is too good to pass up.

[Grimm]

Tomb is easy enough for any character that has a repeatable source of Haste, a way to remove summons, and some non-noisy ranged attack that works against mummies. It's just boring, and fiddly, and I don't recommend it for new players looking for their first win.

[KoboldLord]

Curse you, Grimm! You skipped over three or four posts in this thread that you could have called the same space on, just so you could go straight for mine!

[Grimm]

Hey, I came late to the bingo hall.