Making Race-branding Useful

[XuaXua]

Not that we have a lot of dwarves, but...

I think it is neat that some items are racially-branded (elven, dwarven, or orcish), but have some issues with it.

1) There aren't enough racial brands. What is unbranded considered, "human"?

2) Is demon considered a racial brand? It should be since you will never find an elven demon whip.

3) Racial brands should apply to some randart artefacts; at this time they don't.

4) Racial brands on armor should not only do what they do now, but should be altered to add a small + Sneak value against monsters of that race. Said would think a the player might be an ally and would be less likely to notice them. This might encourage the use of an all-over orc armor by a character raiding the orcish mines or an early character trying to avoid orcs, or using all elven armor in the Elven Hall, etc. Something to consider.

[dpeg]

I think that racial gear should go away from invisible numerical boosts to other stuff -- like the elven items increasing stealth or making it easier to cast. It's not so easy to come up with ideas... I could imagine that dwarven items are better in that they are generated with higher pluses (always at least +1, say) instead of the implicit bonus (in other words, this saves you some EA/EW scrolls if you want to keep it, or is a minor advantage early on). I am out of ideas for orcish...

[nicolae]

I could imagine that dwarven items are better in that they are generated with higher pluses (always at least +1, say) instead of the implicit bonus (in other words, this saves you some EA/EW scrolls if you want to keep it, or is a minor advantage early on).

I like this. I notice that orcish weapons tend to generate -1, +1: is that just me noticing random patterns or is that built in? Distinguishing the enchantment distributions on various racial gear might be a subtle way to distinguish them.

Since elven gear seems to focus on sneaking and stealth, perhaps elven short blades could have a small bonus to stabbing?

I am out of ideas for orcish...

Beogh likes orcish equipment, maybe just boost the bonuses Beogh gives orcs using orc equipment if orcish gear needs more oomph.

Perhaps it will be easier to think of things once weapon special moves go in -- dwarven axes might be better at <Axe Special Move>, for instance.

[Roderic]

I did a proposal some time ago:

dwarven - above average always, corrosion-proof
elven - lighter, easier to use in casting
orcish - below average but easier to handle to deliver unarmed gestures more frequent

[dpeg]

Roderic: Oh, I like the bit about unarmed punches for orcish gear. Not sure it makes sense with gloves etc. but what the heck. The only real issue are orcish two-handers, I guess.
Then, I don't like the stereotype of "below average" -- may Beogh curse your ancestors and your offspring for seven generations!

[TimP]

The orcish gloves are spiked, raising unarmed damage?

[nicolae]

Roderic: Oh, I like the bit about unarmed punches for orcish gear. Not sure it makes sense with gloves etc. but what the heck. The only real issue are orcish two-handers, I guess.
Then, I don't like the stereotype of "below average" -- may Beogh curse your ancestors and your offspring for seven generations!

Orcish gloves (and boots) could have spiked pointy bits that do a little extra damage when you do a punch or kick.

Orcish two-handers could have a cosh at the other end that functions like a standard aux unarmed attack: hit them with the axe blade and then bonk 'em with the handle bonk. (Perhaps only orcs have the requisite cultural background to take full advantage, though.)

Edit: Thematically, I see it as:
- Dwarven gear's focus is high quality. Resistant to corrosion, plus maybe a better chance of good plusses. Dwarves enchanting dwarven gear could have a higher chance of getting more enchantment out of it.
- Elven gear's focus is speed, stealth, and spells. Weighs less, less of a hamper on spellcasting, better stealth. Perhaps bonuses to weapon speed/accuracy/stabbing as well, or more plusses on launchers and weapon accuracy.
- Orcish gear's focus is brutality. Better damage plusses, but maybe less accuracy plusses, spiked armor for more unarmed damage, and whatever bonuses Beogh sees fit. More chance of bleeding, maybe.


Edit 2: While I was thinking about this, my mind wandered to orc-slaying and dragon-slaying brands, and then the message you get when wielding one as an orc or draconian. Behold: the "self-loathing" brand - bonus damage against whatever species you are. Undoubtedly has similar balance problems to the Ring of Charms.


Edit 3: What are the devteam's thoughts on armor species brands that make it possible for various species to wear armor they otherwise couldn't? Like, say, giant armor that could be worn by large species, or specially-made armors that could be worn over horns/claws/talons, but only over horns/claws/talons, like a barding?

[XuaXua]

No feedback on my idea in the OP about racially branded armor giving you a "you're one of us" (translated to a minor stealth) bonus against (non-)observing members of the manufacturing race. Could just work for Orcish as a "disguise".

[nicolae]

No feedback on my idea in the OP about racially branded armor giving you a "you're one of us" (translated to a minor stealth) bonus against (non-)observing members of the manufacturing race. Could just work for Orcish as a "disguise".

I like it. I was thinking about the possibility of other species having their own brands -- it's not like the Tolkien races are the only ones with civilizations, right? -- and thought it might be a neat feature of, say, kobold armor, or some other species that isn't so bright.

Edit: A similar idea got passed around as a Hexes spell on the wiki a while back: you would disguise yourself as an orc or a naga or whatever.

[jejorda2]

I'd kind of like to see a race with eight fingers on each hand or something, such that it gets big penalties for using weapons that aren't made for it. But then it gets a big bonus when it does get the right weapon. Kind of like finding a centaur barding before 0.8.

And it might as well be Tengu or Octopodes; how do they use regular weapons with their odd appendages? Do Minotaurs must have fingers and toes, not hooves.

[XuaXua]

I'd kind of like to see a race with eight fingers on each hand or something, such that it gets big penalties for using weapons that aren't made for it. But then it gets a big bonus when it does get the right weapon. Kind of like finding a centaur barding before 0.8.

And it might as well be Tengu or Octopodes; how do they use regular weapons with their odd appendages? Do Minotaurs must have fingers and toes, not hooves.

They can swing a weapon just like anyone else. Skill represents technique.

[MyOtheHedgeFox]

What about these?

Elven: lighter (-1/4 of the weight), reduced EV malus
Dwarven: +1 to enchantment and to maximum enchantment level
Orcish: +damage, -accuracy, higher chance of existing vorpal brand for melee and flame brand for ranged weapons OR add "bleeding" effect to each hit from this weapon

[Danei]

What if orcish weapons are wickedly barbed/serrated/spiked/hooked (depending on type) and have a chance to cause bleeding like claws do?

Orcish armor could be spiky too, and have a chance to do a little damage to melee attackers.

On the other hand, maybe they're also low quality (sorry Beogh) and more susceptible to corrosion.

[theclam]

Elven: lighter (-1/4 of the weight), reduced EV malus
Dwarven: +1 to enchantment and to maximum enchantment level

I like these kind of ideas.

Elven equipment has one more EV on armor and one more Accuracy on weapons (2 for elves) and light weight.
Dwarven equipment has resist corrosion and 1 more base AC. It should have less hindrance for dwarves.
Orc weapons have +1 base damage and a chance to cause bleeding and the armor has a 20% chance of rF+ or rC+ (like that new item in trunk). Orcs should get an additional +1 damage or +1 AC.

This might be too strong though, given how common racial items are.

I don't like the idea that racial gear should just have a different probability of enchantments though. I don't think that adds much flavor.

[JeffQyzt]

Um...everyone does realize that some of these *already* apply to racial brands, right?

Here are current effects of racial brands:

• Elven - slightly lighter weight, weapons tend to have minor +acc, body armor is easier to cast spells in, and cloaks/boots enhance stealth. Elves get slightly better bonuses on top of this.
• Dwarven - slightly heavier weight, very corrosion resistant, better chance for minor +acc and +dam on weapons, better chance for minor +enchant on armor, penalized spellcasting (for non-dwarves). Dwarves get better bonuses on top of this.
• Orcish - weapons are slightly skewed to minor -acc +dam enchantments. Orcs get minor bonuses when using. Not as impressive as either Elven or Dwarven brand, but it's way more common.

[nicolae]

Um...everyone does realize that some of these *already* apply to racial brands, right?

Here are current effects of racial brands:

• Elven - slightly lighter weight, weapons tend to have minor +acc, body armor is easier to cast spells in, and cloaks/boots enhance stealth. Elves get slightly better bonuses on top of this.
• Dwarven - slightly heavier weight, very corrosion resistant, better chance for minor +acc and +dam on weapons, better chance for minor +enchant on armor, penalized spellcasting (for non-dwarves). Dwarves get better bonuses on top of this.
• Orcish - weapons are slightly skewed to minor -acc +dam enchantments. Orcs get minor bonuses when using. Not as impressive as either Elven or Dwarven brand, but it's way more common.

I was reiterating a few existing brand effects in my posts, for completeness.