Racial Equipment

[giygas]

I created this account a while back, but now I'm posting because I have a question:

Why does dwarven equipment still exist, now that MD has been axed? It's not particularly advantageous for DD to use it... and (at least according to the wiki), it's not good at all for non-dwarves, especially casters...

So, why hasn't it been axed also? Am I missing something important (or putting too much faith in the wiki!)?

[giygas]

I'm definitely tempted to say racial items should be removed altogether. They confuse unspoiled players, and it's hard to think of any interesting decisions that they introduce. However, removing just one of them doesn't seem like it would help.

Agreed. Although they should still have some kind of elven leather equivalent (armor that has an EV penalty but no spellcasting penalty)

[TwilightPhoenix]

Dwarf weapons/armor is more resistant to corrosion.

[Grimm]

Orc gear is tied to Beogh. That oughtn't go.

[TehDruid]

Frankly, the benefits of racial equipment are too situational and short-lived, imho. Orcs have to follow Beogh to enjoy the full benefits of wearing orcish armour, there's only one species of dwarves to use dwarven items fully, and then again, everybody aims for a non-racial armour by the endgame (some sort of dragon armour, a robe of resistance maybe, or Crystal Plate). And of course, artefacts can't be racial... I'm with Minmay on this, I find racial gear rather redundant and mostly a flavour thing. Love the racial equipment tiles in trunk though, I won't lie.

[XuaXua]

Why not make it so that all aspects of each weapon have slight variations off a base average weapon of that type?

One flail might be slightly more speedy than other.
One axe might be less (or more) corrosive than another.
One sword of the same type might be capable of slightly more damage than another.

Give each weapon type a base (they all have them) and a standard deviation on each value.

Allow enchant accuracy/damage to instead modify any given variable on a weapon.

[Grimm]

That's a great idea. Like attributes in Wesnoth.

[XuaXua]

That's a great idea. Like attributes in Wesnoth.

I don't know what that means, so I have no idea how supportive or sarcastic your response is and therefore can have no reaction other than this.

[XuaXua]

That's a great idea. Like attributes in Wesnoth.

I don't know what that means, so I have no idea how supportive or sarcastic your response is and therefore can have no reaction other than this.

In that vein, given multiple abilities of a weapon, have each enchant scrolls application increase the lowest (2?) abilities of a weapon by 5%.

[Grimm]

I'll move this topic to the GDD because it's a real issue and I am serious.

Wesnoth is a fantasy turnbased tactics game in which units of the same race and class are distinguished by being randomly assigned traits (not attributes as I mistakenly said above). So an elven archer can be "resilient, intelligent", which means that she has a little more HP and levels up a little more quickly.

Manual citation here: http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/*checkout*/w ... tml#traits

The system is analogous to what you're proposing for Crawl weapons, all the more so as Wesnoth units also have specialities (Crawl brands) and abilities (Crawl randart properties like +Inv).

[mageykun]

Edit: dang it, ninja-ed! I don't care, I'm posting anyways. :p

Wesnoth's a high fantasy themed turn based war game (kind of like advance wars or fire emblem, but free, and much more detailed and rich in play). Each unit in wesnoth is assigned a random trait upon generation (or two sometimes? I forget). They serve to make individual units distinct from their otherwise identical peers, and introduce an element of randomness into unit generation, and depending on what you get, can affect your short term decisions or strategies in a given battle (long term there's less effect over a campaign- you tend to train up units with the best traits).

Some examples:

quick - gets an extra unit of move per turn
strong- melee bonus
dexterous - ranged bonus
intelligent - levels faster, but weaker
loyal- doesn't require $/per turn for upkeep (really valuable this- not given to you by the rng)

etc. There's more, some are race / unit specific, and there are even ones that are unequivocal penalties rather than bonuses, but you get the idea.

I'm pretty sure he was making an earnest, not a sarcastic, comparison. They make unit selection in wesnoth interesting, theoretically something similar could make item selection in crawl interesting. The danger is in not making it overly complicated, and getting it to mesh neatly with the existing system of brands and artefact modifiers.

[XuaXua]

I was going slightly different, maybe?

Wesnoth seems to decide flat attributes/appliques.

I'm talking adjusting / varying the existing factors that make a weapon.

TODAY'S TRIDENT (100% inaccurate #s for corrosion and handedness penalty and racial modifiers)

a +0,+0 trident (weapon)
Accuracy: +3
Damage: 9
Delay: 130%
Weight: 16 aum
Corrosion Resistance: 30%
Handedness: 1-2 (penalized by global X% on 1-handedness)
Inherent Abilities: Reaching

Dwarven?
Corrosion Resistance: +20%

Orcish?
Accuracy = +2.75 (or negated if used by an Orc)
Damage = 9.25

Elven?
Delay = 125%
Weight = 15.5 aum

- - - -

TOMORROW'S TRIDENT

Elven, Dwarven, Orcish still exist and provide some sort of inherent build factors. Can be applied to artefacts.

Weapon is generated with standard deviations using base as above.

a basic trident (weapon)
FACTOR: Accuracy: +3 +/- 0.5 (Min -6, Max 12,
FACTOR: Damage: 9 +/- 0.5 (Min 0, Max 18)
FACTOR: Delay: 130% +/- 10% (Min 65% (half), Max 260% (double)
FACTOR: Corrosion Resistance: 30% +/- 20% (Min 0%, Max 100%)
FACTOR: Weight: 16 aum (+/- 1 aum)
Handedness: 1-2 (penalized by global X% on 1-handedness)
Inherent Abilities: Reaching

Apply an Enchant Weapon Scroll, and it increases the lowest two factors by X% (where X is determined by trial and error) till Max is hit; no control over what Enchant applies to; weight is not a considered factor, but is varied with the standard deviation for shits and giggles.

With enchant weapon affecting the lowest value, Acid attacks (like a red jelly) could affect Corrosion Resistance before affecting Damage, which then would have sort of the same effect of consuming Enchant Scrolls (as they'd apply to corrosion resistance).

Handedness penalty could also be considered a factor and reduced or increased to an amount, which could account for a non-standard "make" of the weapon.

Just throwing the idea out there.

[Grimm]

How would they appear to the player? Straight stats on the i screen?

[XuaXua]

How would they appear to the player? Straight stats on the i screen?

Yes; take the long-standing suggestion of modifying those stats on the i screen by showing the actual current weapon values with the average values (the base values we currently see on the screen) next to the numbers in parenthesis.

  Code:


a - a +3,+4 trident (weapon).

A hafted weapon with three points at one end.

Accuracy rank: +6 (+3)  Damage rank: 13 (9)  Delay rank: 135% (130)  Corrosion rank: 20% (30%)



Next enchant scroll on that one will decrease delay and increase corrosion resistance, I think.

[One-Eyed Jack]

If the differences are substantive enough that they make a meaningful impact on play, then they should just be different weapon types.

If they aren't, the distinction isn't worth making.

[mageykun]

Okay, I can see why having the base stats be subject to some degree of randomization might be attractive.

On the other hand, having to check the item description for every equip item you come across before you can evaluate it as useless / useful would make the game a lot more tedious.

I mean, what are the factors we consider now in weapon section? You look at the type, the base, and then if it's ego or artefact. Once you get past the initial bit of the game, you can pretty much ignore anything of the wrong type, and only have to worry about considering bases as good or better than the one you already have, with some special consideration if you stumble across a great brand or artefact. If the base types get blurred too much (or at all?) by randomized stats, you lose a convenient tool for comparison and have to spend a lot more time checking item descriptions.

[roctavian]

Yeah, randomized stats might be a bad idea but I was getting into it, reading through these posts. I think more pronounced differences for racial equipment would be interesting, though. I tend to favor dwarven equipment in the early game, if I encounter it, but it's borderline superstition. How much does it protect from corrosion? Maybe more transparent differences would also be nice?

[Galefury]

You know weapons already have randomized stats that can be improved by enchanting, right? They are called damage enchantment and to hit enchantment. Some even have an ego effect! There is no need to complicate this further by varying base stats.

According to Henzell dwarven items have a 50% chance for an extra +1 to enchantment (rolled separately for each enchantment). Also according to Henzell dwarven items are 80% corrosion resistant. I don't know if these numbers are correct.

[Grimm]

Elven and orcish gear are fine as they are. The problem is dwarven gear. DD already have plenty of unique attributes, so there's no reason to keep generating large numbers of items that only they can take full advantage of.

A counterproblem is that there is a suite of beautiful new tiles for dwarven gear in trunk which it would be a shame to lose.

Proposed solution: reflavor dwarven gear to "steel" or "viking" or something, keep the enchantment bonus and the corrosion resistance, as that's likely to be useful to many characters early on, and drop the bonusses that only dwarves get from them. Keep the stats hidden and let the "steel" (or whatever) tag alert players the way the "dwarven" tag did.

This would excise the dwarvishness but keep the tiles and the useful attributes.

[nicolae]

Elven and orcish gear is fine as they are. The problem is dwarven gear. DD already have plenty of unique attributes, so there's no reason to keep generating large numbers of items that only they can take full advantage of.

Since dwarven items are supposed to be well-made, perhaps dwarven items could have a higher maximum enchantment and the potential for more pluses from an enchantment; say, a small chance of adding +2 instead of just +1 to armour, and a higher chance of adding multiple pluses when enchanting weapons, etc., to represent the enchantment scroll bringing out more of the inherent quality of a dwarven armour or weapon.

[Eji1700]

Elven and orcish gear

I'm honestly not sure how "fine" they are. I still think that the benefits really should be looked at and tweaked a little since as it stands it's pretty situational stuff.

[jejorda2]

We could rename a few races to give them benefits from dwarven equipment.

Any of Merdwarves, Dogdwarves, Snake Dwarves, Horse Dwarves, Claw Dwarves, Bird Dwarves, Dragon Dwarves, Bull Dwarves, Bat Dwarves, Devil Dwarves, God Dwarves, or OctoDwarves could use the equipment bonuses.

Cat Dwarves don't really use equipment, so it doesn't make sense for them.

[Grimm]

There are two elven races, neither of which have as many special gimmicks as DD.

Orcs too are pretty vanilla. In addition, there is the Beogh synergy, which adds an interesting twist to HO play.

There are already an Elf branch and an Orc branch, but no Dwarf branch.

And finally, there are also beautiful new tiles for elven and orcish gear. No sense throwing those out for the sake of a hobgoblinish consistency.

[XuaXua]

So... only Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs are able to manufacture weapons and armour of varying quality in the land of Crawl?

You know, barring use of Enchant Armour scrolls on hides (if an Elf used the scroll, wouldn't it be Elven Trollskin Leather Armour?)

Not going to find a Tengu Leather Armour or a Centaur bow anytime soon, eh? Draconian-style Robes with holes cut out in the back for vestigal wings?

[Kate]

Proposed solution: reflavor dwarven gear to "steel" or "viking" or something, keep the enchantment bonus and the corrosion resistance, as that's likely to be useful to many characters early on, and drop the bonusses that only dwarves get from them. Keep the stats hidden and let the "steel" (or whatever) tag alert players the way the "dwarven" tag did.

This sounds pretty reasonable to me, especially considering that the dwarf-only bonus on dwarven gear is practically nonexistent already (2 extra AC on plate armour at 27 armour skill, hurrah!). Likewise for elven armour, that could probably be reflavoured similarly. Orcish gear under Beogh is really the only case where species actually has a significant effect.

[Tiber]

I have to say I like racial items. The fact that only one race can really take advantage of dwarven items isn't a huge deal, because there's only one race that can really take advantage of orcish items, and there's still the proposed forge dwarves.

The difference between dwarven and elven/orcish racial items is that elven items are always better than their non-racial equivalents (even if in only trivial ways, such as by being lighter), and orcish items are mostly used by non-orcs because there are enough orcs in the early game that they'll probably have something moderately useful if the stuff on the floor is all junk.

I think the only real problem with dwarven items is that their main benefit, corrosion resistance, rarely comes into play outside of slime. And dwarven body armor is actually worse for any sort of hybrid. I like nicolae's suggestion of higher maximum enchantment. The two-for-the-price-of-one enchanting might be a bit much, but a lower enchantment failure chance could work too.

[dpeg]

I believe that something could be done with racial gear but the current solution is not very exciting. On the other hand, the issue is not pressing, and that's why nothing has happened for so long.

If I had to design racial properties from scratch, I'd try to make them different from purely numerical effects. Also, wouldn't it be nice if racial properties always came with a benefit and a drawback; members of the species are exempt from the drawback.

An idea for dwarven:
* comes with higher base enchantments
* comes more often with an ego
* is harder to enchant (?EW/EA has higher chancer fail) -- unless DD

[TwilightPhoenix]

We could rename a few races to give them benefits from dwarven equipment.

Any of Merdwarves, Dogdwarves, Snake Dwarves, Horse Dwarves, Claw Dwarves, Bird Dwarves, Dragon Dwarves, Bull Dwarves, Bat Dwarves, Devil Dwarves, God Dwarves, or OctoDwarves could use the equipment bonuses.

Cat Dwarves don't really use equipment, so it doesn't make sense for them.

Already been suggested and probably rejected.

[roctavian]

I think "steel" would make a lot of sense for current "dwarven" equipment because it fits well both thematically and mechanically. But "elven" equipment seems hard to reflavor elsewise -- "light" armour and weapons perhaps? And what difference should those type of weapons have from normal ones? A bit less base damage, a bit faster speed?

Or it could be "arcane" equipment -- armour easier to cast in, weapons more willing to accept enchantments (%chance to add an extra +1 when using an enchant I or II scroll?) Or spell-based brands could last longer when cast on such weapons?

On seeing dpeg's post on preview: what if Elven equipment confers that bonus %chance to add extra enchantment, but is more susceptible to corrosion -- perhaps elven equipment never becomes completely immune to corrosion, or becomes immune at a higher threshold? Unless you're an elf.

[mageykun]

There's already some degree of that already, isn't there? (Orc weapons more likely to get -n, +m, dwarven more likely to be +something).

The problem with the idea of racial modifiers affecting things like the initial enchantment or brand rolls at item generation is it's uninteresting to the player. The interesting stuff happens behind stage, for the rng. Sure, maybe the orc short sword is more likely to be -1,+1 than a vanilla short sword, but once you know it's -1,+1, what's the point? It's exactly the same as any other -1, +1 short sword.

I'd think you'd want racial equipment to be different in such a way that it can still affect player choice after it's fully identified. Right now we have a tiny bit of this (dwavern amour / weapons should be chosen over identical vanilla peers for the corrosion resistance, an elven cloak is better than a vanilla one for the tiny bit of stealth, etc) but it doesn't come up very often (enchantment, brands, and resistances are almost always more important concerns) and doesn't really come off as interesting.

I do like the idea of racial modifiers presenting an advantage/drawback pair (with racial drawback immunity!), though. That's a good one. Hmm. I think I'll come back later and try and brainstorm some tradeoff combinations.

[XuaXua]

Of note, don't forget to include the three demon weapons, as demonspawn get bonuses to using them.

[BlackSheep]

Would it help if racial equipment was very rare? Right now, it's trivial to find orcish and elven equipment.

[varsovie]

Or maybe put a "race" over every equipment, with more meaningful effects. But yeah, it should not duplicates brands, and carry a risk of overcomplexity.

[Tiber]

Following this line of thought that's really a problem with having racial items in general - if a specific species gets extra bonuses from something and no extra drawbacks to make up for it, then either it's going to be too good for them or not good enough for other species. So I'd think if we're going to have this sort of property at all it'd be better to go with something like "steel" instead of "orcish." Either that or just have orcish/dwarven items without player orcs/dwarves.

I think you're overstating the bonus. Even if you're playing as an elf, elven armor is almost certainly going to be overshadowed by dragon armor or a good artifact eventually. If you have even a branded armor, it probably won't be worth switching unless you've managed to find something that's racial and branded. The bonus is more "nice to have" than it is game-changing. Demonspawn and demon weapons are about the only racial bonus that matter around endgame.

[JeffQyzt]

(note that using "steel" here specifically is a bad idea because it's already used for ammo)

It's also presumably the default material for armour.

Personally, I like the racial sub-types, but I'd prefer it if the elven/dwarven effects were more pronounced (e.g. so you might actually consider ego elven chain for a caster over a robe.) If this makes them a lot more desirable, they could become rarer.

OTOH, if we're moving towards alternatives vs. racial crafting techniques, some options could be:

• starmetal
• mithril
• hellforged
• silver-plated --> dwarven spell-disruptive aspects?
• enamel plated --> dwarven rAcid aspects?
• true-metal --> some alchemical explanation

[Grimm]

• mithril

That violates the Prime Directive of "No Tolkien".

[XuaXua]

Unobtainium

[roctavian]

I don't think that a racial (or otherwise non-magical) prefix necessarily has to connote a bonus to specific races, but I think it's valuable to have "mundane" variations to items.

What if orcish equipment increased the amount of noise you made, but gave you a stealth bonus at the same time? It would wake up more monsters, but they might take a round or two to notice you when you're in sight. Sort of like the armor makes you clumsier/noisier to walk around in, but it's like a bit of a disguise? I think I remember someone suggesting something similar before.

[XuaXua]

I think I remember someone suggesting something similar before.

I'm right here, posting in the thread.

RELEVANT THREAD

Each piece of racial armour/weapon worn/wielded gives you a cumulative minor stealth bonus against that race.
Each piece of racial armour/weapon worn/wielded in conjunction, which isn't of that race, negates that stealth bonus (to 0 bonus; there is no penalty involved).