re: Transmuters

[szanth]

I dunno about most people, but it seems to me like a transmuter class -wants- to be melee-oriented, but the first two spells it can get aren't melee. If/when people fix/screw with victory dancing, it'll make starting a transmuter a lot weirder, because you theoretically won't be able to just keep casting fulsome distillation until your abilities get high enough to cast spider form or blade hands; if anything it'd make the time taken to get to those spells take even longer, and it just feels weird that a class surrounding the ability to transform your body into other things makes you go through a ranged potion-driven magic user class first.

So I propose a level 1 or 2 melee transformation. Maybe it just adds a few damage, small bonus, nothing really great, but it's something to tide them over till Spider Form and it'll allow them to train while using an actual skill they'd want.

Regarding fulsome distillation and evaporate, create a few more alchemy-related spells and make an Alchemist class. Have them be able to throw sticky flame (pre-nerf, of course) by using up a liquid of some kind or maybe even taking up both confusion and poison potions to cast it once. Maybe have them be able to use potions of decay to summon level-appropriate imps or undead. There's a lot that could be done with the concept that's just been condensed into two spells.

It seems like there's a disservice being done to both transmuters and the theoretical alchemist classes by treating them like they're the same thing.

[szanth]

Nothing? No responses?

[joellercoaster]

I dunno, I just like the way they work now. You have to do a little bit of everything to get ahead.

I like how multidimensional the early Transmuter game is... if it was just a matter of "turn into something and engage things in melee", then I don't think I'd like them as much. Instead it's a bit of ranged spell use, some summoning, and some melee too. Some people say they get by without one or the other, but I find I need all of those things to survive. It's cool.

Not related to your comment, but I think it's also cool how their early stuff stays useful... Evaporate and Sticks to Snakes, I am still using in the Vaults even though I spend a lot of time in Statue Form.

[szanth]

But it's like if you have an elementalist, and the first two spells they give you are enchantments. Sure, they broaden the background, but it's not necessarily a good thing.

[szanth]

Well look at it this way, here's the list of transmutation-related spells in the game: http://crawl.chaosforge.org/index.php?t ... nsmutation

Of them, these are the offensive ones that aren't "change yourself and hit things": Sandblast, Sticks to Snakes, Evaporation, Alistair's Intoxication, Cigotuvi's Degeneration, Lee's Rapid Deconstruction, Ignite Poison, Shatter.

And on the flip side, here are the offensive spells that -are- "change yourself and hit things": Spider Form, Ice Form, Blade Hands, Statue Form, Dragon Form, Necromutation

Granted, there's far more of the non-changeyourselfandhitthings category, but take into consideration that the starting transmutation book has -HALF- of the total "change yourself and hit things" spells, none of which are in the first two levels (because there are none) and the last two are Ice Form and Blade Hands. This means that you are -forced- to use either no spells for the first two levels (and VD fulmination to use spider form) or start off your character doing potion bombs, which doesn't train unarmed at all.

Maybe it's a bit much to ask melee transmuters to be their own class, okay, but is it asking so much to have even -one- melee option within the first few levels? Drop Dig and add "rock hands" or something simple like that.

And what about when victory dancing is gone? It's in the works, I see the threads for it. The melee transmuter is at a disadvantage there as well.

[KoboldLord]

And what about when victory dancing is gone? It's in the works, I see the threads for it. The melee transmuter is at a disadvantage there as well.

Victory dancing isn't going anywhere. As much as the devteam and most of the fans would like to get rid of it, less than two hours after it is removed the playing community will already have worked out whatever the new optimal way to get xp where you want it is.

https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php? ... nsmutation

This wiki page contains a discussion of possible new transmutation spells. It looks like it hasn't been modified much since last April, but it might be helpful as a starting point if you want to expand the list of transmutations spells.

[szanth]

I like the idea of what studiomk said there, with 'Fang'. Though there should be some benefit to races that already have 'fangs'.

[szanth]

This means that you are -forced- to use either no spells for the first two levels (and VD fulmination to use spider form) or start off your character doing potion bombs, which doesn't train unarmed at all.

So...you never attack anything in melee after you confuse it with Evaporate?

I think I understand now why you think the early game is too hard.

No, casting Evaporate in itself doesn't train Unarmed Combat. Guess what? Neither does casting Spider Form. Just as you attack things in spider form after you cast it, you often attack things after you confuse/poison/whatever them with Evaporate.

Granted. Still, it seems too restricting to make that the optimal play style.

[smock]

I like that fulsome distillation and evaporate are now in the Stalker starting spellbook. If that sticks, I could see good arguments for transmuters getting another transformation and a utility spell place of fulsome distillation and evaporate. There are two spells that I always want to find as a transmuter: confusing touch and condensation shield. Adding these would probably not quite compensate for the loss evaporation.

Would confusing touch, re-imagined as a range-1 Alastair's (transmutation/poison), be overpowered?

[mageykun]

I don't really think there's anything wrong with the way transmuters are set up now. You have choices. And that makes the game interesting.

You can go the popular build, relying on unarmed combat buffed with transformations and blade hands, using evaporation for support confusion or cloud damage on crowds. You can also ignore evaporation entirely with this build (though that will make the early levels harder).

Or can ignore the bodily transformations entirely, especially if you're a merfolk. From here you can branch into enchantments and/or conjurations and make a pretty nifty crusader or reaver style build, with evaporated potion spam support. Or if you want to eschew physical combat, and can branch into earth magic for your damage dealing, working your way up to LRD and shatter. Or you can go necro (kiku probably) with the skill training you get from fulsome distillation- and your transmutation skill gives you a start towards necromutation!

Grated, I've only had success with the first two approaches- the shatter and necro routes are somewhat harder and more long term builds (and the earth route requires some luck with books). But the versatility is there. I'd be against replacing fulsome / evaporate with mele transforms, making it harder to branch out, and I feel, making the job less interesting. Besides, they're useful from D:1 to Zot draconians! I'd be disappointed to see 'em go.

[smock]

Interesting! I hadn't thought of those other options. Seems like ignoring evaporation would make for a challenge.

Have you (or anyone else around here) tried a Stalker in trunk? A SESt might do well branching into earth conjurations or necromancy.

[coyo7e]

Interesting! I hadn't thought of those other options. Seems like ignoring evaporation would make for a challenge.

Have you (or anyone else around here) tried a Stalker in trunk? A SESt might do well branching into earth conjurations or necromancy.

I have, their book is interesting as passwall can be used to get free stabs on unaware enemies, in particular. I am not a big fan of short blades as a whole but I can think of a few builds for them which I'd like to mess with.