Labyrinth brainstorming


Although the central place for design discussion is ##crawl-dev on freenode, some may find it helpful to discuss requests and suggestions here first.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 23rd April 2012, 08:35

Labyrinth brainstorming

I have a notion to make the Lab more interesting by adding a Theseus-style aspect in which you somehow leave a trail and this gives you an advantage in finding the Mino sooner or being able to leave. I can't figure out how it would actually work though.

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Post Monday, 23rd April 2012, 13:58

Re: Is the Labyrinth worth a visit ?

Grimm wrote:I have a notion to make the Lab more interesting by adding a Theseus-style aspect in which you somehow leave a trail and this gives you an advantage in finding the Mino sooner or being able to leave. I can't figure out how it would actually work though.

I'd be interested in this.

I never had problems with the labyrinths (almost all solve themselves so quick that one takes a couple of minutes already feels long to me) but I know others do. Making it a bit easier for them sounds good.
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Post Monday, 23rd April 2012, 14:50

Re: Is the Labyrinth worth a visit ?

How about a mechanism whereby you can sacrifice items to get clues about which the exit is, or at least the way towards it? The more valuable the item, the better the clues: could use something like the existing passive sensing abilities (the labyrinth is, in my experience, a little easier if you're an Ash worshipper with high piety).

This isn't quite like leaving a thread but at least makes the link between physical objects and the route out.

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Post Monday, 23rd April 2012, 15:11

Re: Is the Labyrinth worth a visit ?

Perhaps you could drop stones to "pin" the map and stop a section from rotting. That would require everyone to pick up stones though. Maybe any item would work to pin the map?

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Post Monday, 23rd April 2012, 15:38

Re: Labyrinth brainstorming

I don't think items should be used here. The idea is that players could in principle document of their tracks (stones or screenshot, say), so the game will do it automatically for them. Changing the colour of the floor seems the only viable option for me. If we're fancy, it could come in three tiers (not just two): untouched, recently stepped on, longer ago since stepped on. If there's no objection to this, it would make a fine implementable.

There are some other ideas for how to improve labyrinths, but they involve more thought and/or work:
a) More vaults.
b) More monsters. There could be a fast-moving monster which, when it sees you, turns tail and goes to the minotaur (at least tries to), to wake him up.
c) Deviate from the current grid layout (i.e. walls or paths could have width 2 occasionally) -- this would probably make mazes look much better.
d) The longer you roam the maze, the more walls become (permanently) transparent. Easier for you to find the exit but also higher chance the minotaur will be awake once you will arrive.

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Post Monday, 23rd April 2012, 16:21

Re: Labyrinth brainstorming

Labyrinths are tedious and not fun (at least to me) but it is optimal to do them 99% of the time because of the decent rewards, generally low risk, and tiny opportunity/food cost (usually less than a ration)

It would make more sense if the portal dropped you in an arena near the minotaur (the greek labyrnth was constructed to keep the minotaur in, not to keep other people out, remember; the cretians knew the way and used it to deliver sacrifices I.e. the @) and loot and you had to ice him then navigate your way to an exit. Also fill the lab with monsters. Also remove maprot.

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Post Monday, 23rd April 2012, 16:49

Re: Labyrinth brainstorming

I like labyrinths. They're a space of breathing room (especially since you generally woke half the level running to one before it timed out.) Of course, I only play for a few minutes a day...

RE: dropping stones - can't you do this already? Is there some feature of maprot that removes items from the ground? Of course, shifting walls may mess with your trail of breadcrumbs....which is what I'd expect.

RE: design goals - having an exception that is walled off into a single type of portal vault does not invalidate a general case of design choice. Also - if you want pure abstract strategy, play Go.

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Post Monday, 23rd April 2012, 16:54

Re: Labyrinth brainstorming

Fun is a personal matter... For what it's worth, I always liked the change of pace between frantic search and contemplative maze solving.

I realise I sound like someone who's defending Nethack's Sokoban. Then again, I mentioned some ways how labyrinths would be less uniform and more interesting and I could imagine a version where autoexplore is possible but not ideal.

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Post Monday, 23rd April 2012, 16:55

Re: Labyrinth brainstorming

I also like the labyrinth, and think it's fine as is. It's a unique and thematic portal vault that's totally optional and that breaks the normal rules of play. I don't think it should be removed, nor do I think it should allow mapping/autoexplore, as that would just turn it into the "Press o, go get sandwich" vault.

If the rewards are really disproportional to the challenge, I'd suggest tweaking the rewards and the challenge. Maybe make them appear earlier so that players are less likely to have found tools which trivialize things and so that the minotaur is more likely to be a threat. The loot is pretty random right now, and can vary from "meh, thanks for the scroll of blinking" to "I just found my end game weapon." To me that seems fine, as it's in keeping with the random nature of the game.
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Post Monday, 23rd April 2012, 17:14

Re: Labyrinth brainstorming

nor do I think it should allow mapping/autoexplore, as that would just turn it into the "Press o, go get sandwich" vault.

I'm not necessarily in favor of removing labs, but that is the best argument in favor of it that I've heard. Anything that, within the standard rules of the game, can be completely automated without any risk (let's face it, starvation is an incredibly unlikely occurrence) is a bad thing.

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Post Monday, 23rd April 2012, 17:15

Re: Labyrinth brainstorming

You're probably aware of the fact that I wrote the design goals.

I think it matters that labyrinths are an exception (and not so long ago cut to just one, which was a good move). By the way, my preferred solution to the underlying problem would be to make getting to the minotaur also a race, in one way or another.

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Post Monday, 23rd April 2012, 17:23

Re: Labyrinth brainstorming

What exactly is the underlying problem?

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Post Monday, 23rd April 2012, 19:05

Re: Labyrinth brainstorming

BlackSheep wrote:What exactly is the underlying problem?


The underlying problem is that some players (e.g. myself) don't think that labyrinths add enough to the game to justify going against crawl's design goals. Other players (and the devs) think they do. That's really all there is to it.
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Post Monday, 23rd April 2012, 19:24

Re: Labyrinth brainstorming

dpeg wrote:my preferred solution to the underlying problem would be to make getting to the minotaur also a race, in one way or another.


He keeps eating all the rations.
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Post Monday, 23rd April 2012, 19:27

Re: Is the Labyrinth worth a visit ?

Grimm wrote:Perhaps you could drop stones to "pin" the map and stop a section from rotting. That would require everyone to pick up stones though. Maybe any item would work to pin the map?


Back before the algorithm was changed (I think it was changed; mazes seem a bit easier now), I'd bring stones in and drop one stone at an intersection entrance to note that I had gone that way. It worked for a bit.
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Post Monday, 23rd April 2012, 19:39

Re: Labyrinth brainstorming

dpeg wrote:I realise I sound like someone who's defending Nethack's Sokoban.


The thing that bugged me about Sokoban wasn't that it was a sudden genre shift, going from a hack-and-slash dungeon crawl to a contemplative sliding block puzzle; I actually liked a brief new style of play, a new way to think about things. What bugged me about Sokoban is that if you fuck up Sokoban even just a little bit the whole branch is ruined, unless you're willing to make things even worse with the Luck penalties for digging and making boulders, so I'd always have to use a cheat sheet and go through it tediously to make sure I didn't push a boulder one square too far and ruin everything. Puzzle minigames aren't bad, it's unforgiving puzzle minigames. If you go down the wrong hallway in a labyrinth, you can just turn around.

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Post Monday, 23rd April 2012, 19:45

Re: Labyrinth brainstorming

I could see a timer making Labs more exciting. An increase in the number of features (or the frequency of current features) might help too. In the other thread, it was mentioned that you could find player remains, hungry ghosts, trapdoor spiders, etc. I don't think I've encountered any of these things, and I visit every labyrinth I can.

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Post Monday, 23rd April 2012, 19:46

Re: Labyrinth brainstorming

I'd like to suggest that in this thread we stick to coming up with new ideas for Lab. I understand some people want it gone but that's a separate issue and much less likely to happen than seeing it improved.

Building on One Eyed Jack's suggestion, and bringing the Lab closer to its classical model, why not have the exit generate only on the Mino's death? and you have to go through the maze to exit - it's not at the center.
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Post Monday, 23rd April 2012, 19:58

Re: Labyrinth brainstorming

Grimm wrote:I'd like to suggest that in this thread we stick to coming up with new ideas for Lab. I understand some people want it gone but that's a separate issue and much less likely to happen than seeing it improved.

Building on One Eyed Jack's suggestion, and bringing the Lab closer to its classical model, why not have the exit generate only on the Mino's death? and you have to go through the maze to exit - it's not at the center.


More Minotaurs?

Make the Labyrinth Minotaur a special and give him a charging attack like Alligators have?
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Post Monday, 23rd April 2012, 20:13

Re: Labyrinth brainstorming

The Labyrinth portal is a two-minute puzzle that you can attempt at most once per game. Crawl design philosophy is a heuristic, not a straightjacket. That two-minute interlude isn't hurting anything, and the histrionic claims of Crawl-impurity are frankly baffling.

nicolae wrote:The thing that bugged me about Sokoban wasn't that it was a sudden genre shift, going from a hack-and-slash dungeon crawl to a contemplative sliding block puzzle; I actually liked a brief new style of play, a new way to think about things. What bugged me about Sokoban is that if you fuck up Sokoban even just a little bit the whole branch is ruined, unless you're willing to make things even worse with the Luck penalties for digging and making boulders, so I'd always have to use a cheat sheet and go through it tediously to make sure I didn't push a boulder one square too far and ruin everything. Puzzle minigames aren't bad, it's unforgiving puzzle minigames. If you go down the wrong hallway in a labyrinth, you can just turn around.


You can stop worrying about that part. Sokoban spawns two scrolls that replenish boulders at the entry, and the luck penalty for breaking the rules will completely time out while you're still pushing the rest of the boulders into the holes. Sokoban is basically Nethack's Lair-equivalent. It lets you stock up on resources in a significantly less hostile environment than the main dungeon levels.

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Post Monday, 23rd April 2012, 20:26

Re: Labyrinth brainstorming

Personally i always felt the minotaur should actually be moving around the labyrinth and be MUCH stronger. That way there's a sense of fear usually. As it currently stands its "play the boring mini game for a few until you pop the Xp bag at the end and sort through the loot".
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Post Monday, 23rd April 2012, 20:26

Re: Labyrinth brainstorming

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that asking players to use their spacial reasoning skills for something besides tactical placement in battles isn't unreasonable.

I'd also like to add that exploration isn't completely trivial. Decisions made may not have the same degree of importance or immediate effect as strategic build choices or tactical battle decisions do. But it does affect little things, like using the edges of the map and edges of vaults to try and clear safer areas first, making dangerous areas easier to handle and retreat from. Or opening rooms in such an order you don't expect your escape routes to be cut off. Or making sure you'll be able to get back to the stairs fast. Or prioritizing which item to go for if there are two things eligible for autopickup in LOS, but in different directions. Some people find this tedious, and that's fine. For my part, I prefer not handing even small scale decisions over to machine automation.

I've got nothing against people using autoexplore if they find it convenient, but it seems somewhat unreasonable to complain so vehemently that there's one area in the game where it doesn't work. Clearing a dungeon (in general) involves exploration, combat, and puzzles (distribution varying wildly between games). I really don't see anything wrong with having one optional area in a game where the focus shifts a little. And it is a little shift- it's certainly not the massive genre shift of the deterministic puzzle with fixed rewards sokoban was, or the perennial nightmare of the mandatory minigames in so many rpgs.

Edit: So, so ninja-ed. By four people, again. >_<'

Grimm wrote:I'd like to suggest that in this thread we stick to coming up with new ideas for Lab. I understand some people want it gone but that's a separate issue and much less likely to happen than seeing it improved.

tl;dr- Basically, I tried to say this, only with more words and in an unnecessary philosophical argument instead of a reasonable request.
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Post Monday, 23rd April 2012, 20:31

Re: Is the Labyrinth worth a visit ?

XuaXua wrote:Back before the algorithm was changed (I think it was changed; mazes seem a bit easier now), I'd bring stones in and drop one stone at an intersection entrance to note that I had gone that way. It worked for a bit.

The maprot has been changed, the labyrinth generation algorithm hasn't been. The maprot is smoother (happens every turn instead of every 20 turns) and generally less aggressive. The rotting also depends on the distance to the player. Finally, the maprot algorithm is the same as the one used in the abyss.

What I don't like much in Labyrinths is how wall shifts are almost never noticeable. They don't happen very often (one chance in 10 every 20 turns), and most likely at the other end of the map. The location chosen for the change is specifically weighted for unmapped area (effects.cc:1575). How about we make them more frequent, remove the unmapped weighting, but print a message only if it happens nearby?
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Post Monday, 23rd April 2012, 21:21

Re: Is the Labyrinth worth a visit ?

galehar wrote:
XuaXua wrote:Back before the algorithm was changed (I think it was changed; mazes seem a bit easier now), I'd bring stones in and drop one stone at an intersection entrance to note that I had gone that way. It worked for a bit.

The maprot has been changed, the labyrinth generation algorithm hasn't been. The maprot is smoother (happens every turn instead of every 20 turns) and generally less aggressive. The rotting also depends on the distance to the player. Finally, the maprot algorithm is the same as the one used in the abyss.

What I don't like much in Labyrinths is how wall shifts are almost never noticeable. They don't happen very often (one chance in 10 every 20 turns), and most likely at the other end of the map. The location chosen for the change is specifically weighted for unmapped area (effects.cc:1575). How about we make them more frequent, remove the unmapped weighting, but print a message only if it happens nearby?


I think that might serve only to frustrate, but I've been known to be wrong.

If we are going with frustrating, new suggestions:

1) pressure plates that blatantly remove walls. You step on the end of the corridor, and the trail continues.

2) I think a larger labyrinth as a dungeon floor with sections of generated 2-3 space wide labyrinth-esque corridors connecting unbreakable mini-maze rectangular sections of 1-space wide corridors might be amusing and a nice break if it works.
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Post Monday, 23rd April 2012, 21:27

Re: Is the Labyrinth worth a visit ?

XuaXua wrote:I think that might serve only to frustrate, but I've been known to be wrong.

Why? It has as much chance as opening up a passage as closing one.
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Post Tuesday, 24th April 2012, 03:25

Re: Is the Labyrinth worth a visit ?

galehar wrote:
XuaXua wrote:I think that might serve only to frustrate, but I've been known to be wrong.

Why? It has as much chance as opening up a passage as closing one.


As long as pathing from current location to end stairs is always available, I'm fine with it. I said "might" because I think of the times I've had to travel extremely far through the maze, and only to get cut-off then might frustrate.
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Post Tuesday, 24th April 2012, 05:52

Re: Is the Labyrinth worth a visit ?

XuaXua wrote:
galehar wrote:
XuaXua wrote:I think that might serve only to frustrate, but I've been known to be wrong.

Why? It has as much chance as opening up a passage as closing one.


As long as pathing from current location to end stairs is always available, I'm fine with it.

It is.
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Post Tuesday, 24th April 2012, 08:03

Re: Labyrinth brainstorming

What about changing the disposition of the loot in the labyrinth so that, instead of having it all in a pile by the exit with the Minotaur sitting on top, it's scattered at random around the labyrinth?

The current strategy for a player is pretty much: find centre, kill Minotaur, grab goodies, leave. With items scattered round the labyrinth a tension would be introduced between, on one hand, exploring further and finding more items, and, on the other, getting to the centre and escaping. Since the only pressure to leave at the moment comes from food issues this would work best in combination with a roaming, and tougher, Minotaur.

If the Minotaur was a genuine unique (which in a way it is, due to the place it appears) and more powerful then you'd have a choice between (a) getting to the centre with whatever loot you can find en route and escaping, without meeting the Minotaur (you hope), or (b) spending more time finding items but increasing the risk of meeting the Minotaur. If the Minotaur was genuinely dangerous - I guess most players can beat it by the time they meet it - this would make the labyrinth more tactically challenging. It would also change the risk-vs-reward decision about entering the labyrinth: do I want to risk death (rather than just boredom) in order to try to get some good items?

tl;dr version: so-so Minotaur in centre not tactically interesting; powerful wandering Minotaur and scattered loot more interesting.

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Post Tuesday, 24th April 2012, 13:28

Re: Labyrinth brainstorming

Minivaults, then. I think the Abyss is more interesting now for having the rune always appear in a vault of some sort, so why not spread the Lab treasure out among three or four minivaults?
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Post Tuesday, 24th April 2012, 13:55

Re: Labyrinth brainstorming

Confidence Interval wrote:What about changing the disposition of the loot in the labyrinth so that, instead of having it all in a pile by the exit with the Minotaur sitting on top, it's scattered at random around the labyrinth?


Don't spread out the loot or have multiple loot locations; requires too much searching.

What about treating it like the labyrinth it's based on?
1 - Guaranteed Minotaur Lair Vault (Loot), Guaranteed Exit Vault.

2 - Minotaur is roaming and never asleep. Start him in the loot vault so he can swap equipment and load up on resources. Force him to travel.

3 - Minotaur Lair is not necessarily on the path to the exit.

4 - Exit is either the Entrance, OR Exit doesn't open till you kill the minotaur, but Exit isn't necessarily with the Minotaur Lair.
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Post Tuesday, 24th April 2012, 14:08

Re: Labyrinth brainstorming

I don't think we want to encourage players discovering every nook and cranny of the labyrinth. Currently, players are guided by the wall type to the interior, I think that's good. What is true, and should be changed, that there's almost no interaction until you've reached the exit. A more specific list of what I propose:

0. What galehar said about map changing. (More frequent, not just in map-rotted areas.)
1. In addition to the level changes and sounds, walls can turn translucent. [1]
2. New monster: swift, will flee to the minotaur once it sees you (and wake the minotaur up).
3. Each level sound has a chance to wake up the minotaur anyway. Level sounds if he does.
4. If the minotaur is awake before you arrive, she may prepare an ambush. [2]
5. Distinguish between floor types (never stepped, stepped on recently, some time ago).

[1] In order to make it easy on console to distinguish wall types (they all look the same once transparent), use small windows (and perhaps many of them) rather than large windows.

[2] The minotaur could hide behind a corner or, easier to code, camouflage (i.e. be a wall) until you're there.

Rationale: seeing the walls change gives more hints and is a nice visual effect. The new monsters pose a threat in that the final fight will be harder if the minotaur is awake. They also provide a tool in that you can try to follow them towards the exit. The floor changes should make for easier navigation.
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Post Tuesday, 24th April 2012, 14:38

Re: Labyrinth brainstorming

dpeg wrote:5. Distinguish between floor types (never stepped, stepped on recently, some time ago).


5.1 Disciples of Xom get altogether different tiles to indicate floor use.
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Post Tuesday, 24th April 2012, 16:13

Re: Labyrinth brainstorming

xuaxua wrote:5.1 Disciples of Xom get altogether different tiles to indicate floor use.

Sure, let's make a nonsensical and time-consuming distinction just to give one class "flavour"

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Post Tuesday, 24th April 2012, 16:19

Re: Labyrinth brainstorming

Haven't you learned not to take XuaXua too seriously?
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Post Tuesday, 24th April 2012, 16:47

Re: Labyrinth brainstorming

Blade wrote:
xuaxua wrote:5.1 Disciples of Xom get altogether different tiles to indicate floor use.

Sure, let's make a nonsensical and time-consuming distinction just to give one class "flavour"


Xom is not a class, it's a choice.
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Post Tuesday, 24th April 2012, 20:02

Re: Labyrinth brainstorming

XuaXua wrote:
Blade wrote:
xuaxua wrote:5.1 Disciples of Xom get altogether different tiles to indicate floor use.

Sure, let's make a nonsensical and time-consuming distinction just to give one class "flavour"


Xom is not a class, it's a choice.

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Post Wednesday, 25th April 2012, 00:56

Re: Labyrinth brainstorming

dpeg wrote:[2] The minotaur could hide behind a corner or, easier to code, camouflage (i.e. be a wall) until you're there.

The lab loot quite often contains a nice rod, or at least a good attack wand or two. "Ambush" could also pretty reasonably mean "put on that randart armour, grab the best weapon, and prepare to freeze cloud you."
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Post Wednesday, 25th April 2012, 02:25

Re: Labyrinth brainstorming

KoboldLord wrote:Crawl design philosophy is a heuristic, not a straightjacket. That two-minute interlude isn't hurting anything, and the histrionic claims of Crawl-impurity are frankly baffling.

Well the hermeneutics of Crawl are also approached didactically (see: the tutorial, for instance), and I see no reason not to make these components homogenous.
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Post Wednesday, 25th April 2012, 10:41

Re: Labyrinth brainstorming

mikee wrote:
KoboldLord wrote:Crawl design philosophy is a heuristic, not a straightjacket. That two-minute interlude isn't hurting anything, and the histrionic claims of Crawl-impurity are frankly baffling.

Well the hermeneutics of Crawl are also approached didactically (see: the tutorial, for instance), and I see no reason not to make these components homogenous.

I hadn't appreciated that the development of Crawl was approached in such an intellectually sophisticated fashion.
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Post Wednesday, 25th April 2012, 16:32

Re: Labyrinth brainstorming

This is what I would love to see:

Lab is a grind - low risk, high reward, time consuming and boring. The two tile width change would bring all sorts of fun things to do. One idea is to split the lab into four sections that can be 'completed' - once you solve that area of the maze it closes and cannot be teleported into. The big idea that has hit me and can be incorporated into the previous one is to make this more of a trap ridden tomb: make it higher risk by including boulder beatles and some kind of terrain that they cannot cross so they don't accidentally block passages if not killed - which they shouldn't, they should be ran from). This would first be accomplished with a vault something like this:

  Code:
XXXX.XXXX
XXXX#XXXX
XXBX@XBXX
XX.X.X.XX
XX.....XX
XXX.X..XX
XX....XXX
XX.X..XXX
XX...X.XX
XX..X..XX
XXXX.XXXX

You feel a gust of wind!
The gate slams shut behind you!
You feel as if you are closer to your goal.


The player has just completed one section of the lab (perhaps with a small reward like a Choko) but as she advances south the Boulder Beetles go into full spin mode and now there is a frantic chase to get away. When the player gets out of that small section, she crosses a special terrain that the boulder beetle is either unable to cross, or is killed immediately upon touching.

I need to watch more indiana jones type movies for inspiration here. I'm a little more focused on my recent Xom proposal, but this interests me highly. I really need to learn how to properly create vaults.
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Post Thursday, 26th April 2012, 15:01

Re: Labyrinth brainstorming

mikee wrote:
KoboldLord wrote:Crawl design philosophy is a heuristic, not a straightjacket. That two-minute interlude isn't hurting anything, and the histrionic claims of Crawl-impurity are frankly baffling.

Well the hermeneutics of Crawl are also approached didactically (see: the tutorial, for instance), and I see no reason not to make these components homogenous.


lol wut?
(p.s. this is stupid some dev please make it not stupid) - minmay

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Post Thursday, 26th April 2012, 15:53

Re: Labyrinth brainstorming

Confidence Interval wrote:I hadn't appreciated that the development of Crawl was approached in such an intellectually sophistic fashion.


FTFY

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Post Friday, 27th April 2012, 18:44

Re: Labyrinth brainstorming

A summary of ideas proposed in this thread.

First, a meta-suggestion. Why not have several different types of Labyrinth, with one selected randomly when the player enters the portal. This is already done with every other portal vault. It allows many different ideas to be used, and the variety increases the fun factor.

IDEAS

Floor changes colour as player travels about: untouched, recently stepped on, stepped on longer ago.

The walls become more transparent the longer you are in the maze. (Minotaur will wake if he sees you).

Pressure plates that blatantly remove walls. You step on the end of the corridor, and the trail continues.

Make wall shifts more frequent, remove the unmapped weighting so it doesn’t happen only in maprotted areas, but print a message only if it happens nearby.

Split maze into a number of sections that can be completed - once you solve that part of the maze it closes.

More vaults/features.
Make Lab a trap ridden tomb: e.g. boulder beetles and some kind of terrain that they cannot cross so they don't accidentally block passages if not killed

More monsters
A fast-moving monster which, when it sees you, turns tail and goes to the minotaur to wake him up.

2 or 3 space wide corridors.
Unbreakable mini-maze rectangular sections of 1-space wide corridors connected by 2 or 3-space corridors.

The exit is not in the same place as the Minotaur.
Exit is near entrance, must be re-discovered after finding and killing Mino.
Mino and loot are near entrance, fight is immediate. Exit is elsewhere and maze must be solved in order to escape.
Exit and Mino are both randomly placed.

Use a timer of some sort to force a race to the Mino.

Mino is stronger and wanders Labyrinth at random.
Make the Mino a unique and give him a special attack(s) - charging?

If the minotaur is awake before player arrives, she may prepare an ambush - hide behind a corner or camouflage (i.e. be a wall) until you're there.

Multiple minotaurs.


PS All future suggestions that the Lab be eliminated will be split off into a new thread.

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Post Saturday, 5th May 2012, 00:13

Re: Labyrinth brainstorming

While, like many people, the very idea of mazes in otherwise enjoyable games gives me the vapours (I recall many games in the 90s chucking a maze level in just because) I think the crawl labyrinth could be made much less tedious by removing the wall shifts. What was the thinking behind including these I wonder? Are mazes not infuriating enough on their own?

Even if you enjoy mazes as a concept, having to battle against simulated forgetfulness (map rot) and insanity (wall shifts) while doing them just strikes me as very strange.

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Post Saturday, 5th May 2012, 09:25

Re: Labyrinth brainstorming

molari wrote:While, like many people, the very idea of mazes in otherwise enjoyable games gives me the vapours (I recall many games in the 90s chucking a maze level in just because) I think the crawl labyrinth could be made much less tedious by removing the wall shifts. What was the thinking behind including these I wonder? Are mazes not infuriating enough on their own?

Even if you enjoy mazes as a concept, having to battle against simulated forgetfulness (map rot) and insanity (wall shifts) while doing them just strikes me as very strange.


The enormous difference here is that it's entirely optional. If you don't like it, don't do it.

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Post Saturday, 5th May 2012, 09:29

Re: Labyrinth brainstorming

While, like many people, the very idea of mazes in otherwise enjoyable games gives me the vapours (I recall many games in the 90s chucking a maze level in just because) I think the crawl labyrinth could be made much less tedious by removing the wall shifts. What was the thinking behind including these I wonder? Are mazes not infuriating enough on their own?


They are there to prevent "left hand on wall" strategies (finger on screen strategies??) but don't do that very well.

@mumra: That argument could be used for adding broken races, gods, whatever into the game because "you don't have to play it". Optimal play here is something boring richly rewarded. That is basically grinding.

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Post Saturday, 5th May 2012, 14:11

Re: Labyrinth brainstorming

@cerebovssquire: Do you happen to know why this strategy was considered undesirable? Isn't it applying reason to a maze rather than relying on luck and/or time?

@mumra: As cerebovssquire mentioned that line of thinking leads to very poor or broken "optional" gameplay - hence why spells like Dorokhlores Tomb were removed rather than being left to player discretion.
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