Portal timer complaint time

[Rast]

Clear Elf 3. Go down stairs to Elf 4 for the first time, get labyrinth timer.
o-Tab-o-Tab, repeat until done exploring. No time spent resting or retreating.
Turns out its a disconnected level. Go back to Elf 3, take another stair down.
o-Tab until explored, still no portal.
Back up, down the third set of stairs.
o-Tab, find empty arch.

So... did I do something wrong or is the portal timer too short?

[BlackSheep]

You got unlucky. Even if you hadn't gotten a disconnected level, simply autoexploring (killing as you go) might not have let you find the portal in time. I usually burn a scroll of magic mapping when I get a labyrinth or bazaar announcement.

[mindlar]

BlackSheep beat me to it. I usually carry a single scroll of magic mapping just for the cases where I enter a floor and see the announcement. The only time that I haven't done so was the time that the labyrinth spawned within sight of the stairs.

[ebarrett]

Never autoexplore when looking for portals, it wastes a lot of time. Don't fight if at all possible unless things are really in the way, or represent a threat. Pay attention to the messages, they tell you roughly how far from the portal you are. Might want to carry a scroll of magic mapping with you at all times, too, since even without wasting time you might not be fast enough for some of the shorter timers if you keep guessing wrong (since you have clues for distance but not for direction); if the first message while exploring (not the one when you enter the level, that one only tells you there is a portal somewhere) it tells you the portal is far from you ("distant ticking of a clock" or whatever), just read magic mapping to find it instead of running around randomly.

So, yeah, you did something wrong and some portal times are really short! Also I was too slow and got doublebeaten to it.

[Blade]

Autoexploring and killing everything is a pretty good way to miss any portal timers. The timer is long enough.

...triplebeaten

[mageykun]

The timer for telling people the timer is short is short as well, it would see.

[XuaXua]

This is pretty much the favorite topic of all early crawl players.

Check my post history.

[Rast]

I suppose I misunderstood the purpose of the timer -- I'd thought it was simply to prevent the player from coming back 5 XL later when the vault is trivial.

In this case, I did have a ?MM, which, if I had used it, would have let me go back to the proper stairs in time. I still would have had to fight my way to the portal.

[jejorda2]

The one sewer portal vault where you have to find the hidden door, but you see the entrance through glass doors, can be easy to miss from the timer.

Maybe the short timer shouldn't start until there is a clear path from the player to the portal.

[Galefury]

There are two kinds of timed portals, announced and unannounced, and their timers have different purposes. Announced portals are supposed to reward you for hurrying to find them. The unannounced portal timers are supposed to force you to enter them when you find them, or lose them.

There's an implementable for improving unannounced portal timers. I actually tried looking into it, but the related lua and C++ functions are a huge mess (wrappers within wrappers within wrappers, with no documentation), and while I think I know what needs to be done I have no clue how to actually do it. I cant even find some of the relevant files in the source. I'll probably try again, but currently lack the motivation. If someone else wants to try, feel free to do so.

[Moose]

I always turn on T&D from my first turn and train it to ~3 levels just so I dont miss the sewer vault or the ossuary vault with secret doors...

[BlackSheep]

The unannounced portal timers are supposed to force you to enter them when you find them, or lose them.

What's the current behavior for unannounced portal timers?

[KoboldLord]

The unannounced portal timers are supposed to force you to enter them when you find them, or lose them.

What's the current behavior for unannounced portal timers?

They have a long timer and a short timer. The long timer is very long, and it starts ticking the moment you arrive on-level. You are very unlikely to miss the long timer unless you get shafted or decide to branch hop for a while; I've completed one portal vault on a level and still had time to explore the rest of the level and enter another timed vault on the same level. The short timer kicks in the moment your LOS hits the portal itself. It's fairly short, and you don't have time for much. In fact, if there's a bunch of monsters in the way you might have to rush past without fighting, because the portal won't necessarily wait for you.

There's also unannounced Bazaars, Troves, and Ziggurats, which just wait patiently until you feel like entering. Forever, if need be.

[ebarrett]

I thought the short timer started when you first spotted a single tile from the minivault containing the portal. Could be some really outdated info, tho.

[Blade]

The short timer starts when you see the portal, but there's been talk of changing that recently.

[galehar]

I thought the short timer started when you first spotted a single tile from the minivault containing the portal. Could be some really outdated info, tho.

Some devs thought it worked this way and the misinformation spread. I might have been a part of it. This behaviour would be better, especially if we remove long timers, so it's part of the implementable Galefury tried to do. Triggering the short timer would print a message too.

[BlackSheep]

So the goal would be to eliminate long timers (I can stair dip again!) and make unannounced portals behave more like announced portals. Instead of announcing themselves when you enter a level, they'd do so when they first come into view. (Which would make their announcement messages ideal candidates for an auto-More.)

[XuaXua]

So the goal would be to eliminate long timers (I can stair dip again!) and make unannounced portals behave more like announced portals. Instead of announcing themselves when you enter a level, they'd do so when they first come into view. (Which would make their announcement messages ideal candidates for an auto-More.)

Someone's going to chime in with a Magic Mapping + Spoiled Players comment, so I figured I'd do it.

[BlackSheep]

I think in the discussion on the Implementable page it was mentioned that magic mapping should start the timer. Ashenzari points out the portals for you. How would the game handle partial mapping of a vault with the passive mapping mutation?

[KoboldLord]

I think in the discussion on the Implementable page it was mentioned that magic mapping should start the timer. Ashenzari points out the portals for you. How would the game handle partial mapping of a vault with the passive mapping mutation?

I believe the current idea is that any form of mapping triggers the timer, so if you nick the vault with the fringes of your detection you will be uniquely disadvantaged because the timer starts but you don't actually have enough information to recognize the vault and beeline for it. Ignorance is bliss. Ashenzari, and only Ashenzari, will penalize stair-dipping. For followers of all other deities, it goes back to being clearly optimal.

[BlackSheep]

Ashenzari announces portals, though. So while you may have started out dipping, you can change course and head for the portal. I'm just wondering whether partial mapping of a vault should start a timer without making an announcement. Maybe that could be the new long timer?

Plus there's the whole implementing partial detection of portal vaults thing...

[galehar]

Maybe that could be the new long timer?

Plus there's the whole implementing partial detection of portal vaults thing...

Yes, the idea is that mapping any cell of the vault triggers the long timer with a message (somewhat different than the message from the short timer).

Accidentally triggering the long timer with passive might be seen as a bad side effect of a normally positive ability. However, I think it's going to be actually bad only in case of being shafted. And it's a case were you often use the scroll if you don't have passive mapping.
Anyway, I can't think of a better way to handle it, and I think it's an improvement over status quo (or I wouldn't have written the implementable of course).

[XuaXua]

OK, so...

Drop onto Lair 4.

"YOU HEAR A DISTANT SNORT" - indicates Labyrinth.
About to click a Magic Map, but see I am VIEWING an Ice Cave Portal.
Hit Magic Map and I see there is a VOLCANO Portal ALSO!!!!!!

Since I triggered the short timer, I go to the ice cave, defeat it as quick as I can.
I get nothing helpful from the ice cave.

I rush STRAIGHT to the labyrinth, too late.
I make it to the volcano and beat it.
Nothing useful.

This is the why I put in the suggestion quite a while ago to pause active portal timers if entering another portal. I know it got dismissed, but I'm a spoiled player; I can make the right decisions (should've gone Labyrinth, but I'd have spent longer there than in the ice cave). Unspoiled players can't make these choices.

[Blade]

"oh no, I have to make a possibly-difficult choice about which portal is more important to me in one out of one hundred games"

I see nothing wrong here.

[XuaXua]

"oh no, I have to make a possibly-difficult choice about which portal is more important to me in one out of one hundred games"

I see nothing wrong here.

I probably should have gone for the labyrinth; ice portal and volcano rarely seem to have anything worth the trouble of going into them, besides XP.

[Grimm]

I've had some crap lab treasure. The whole choice is precisely what Crawl's about: roll your dice, eat the result.

[Jeremiah]

One problem with volcanoes and ice caves is that one of the most useful things they offer is gear with resistance to the relevant element. But if you don't already have resistance to it, it's probably too dangerous to enter the portal.

Of course that's not the only loot they offer, and more resistance items are often useful, but even so, I find that more often than not I leave these portals well alone. (Or go in and immediately leave again if a nearby exit is available.)

[XuaXua]

One problem with volcanoes and ice caves is that one of the most useful things they offer is gear with resistance to the relevant element. But if you don't already have resistance to it, it's probably too dangerous to enter the portal.

Yep; Ice Caves and Volcanoes are catch-22's. :/

[KoboldLord]

In most of those portals, the relevant resistance actually doesn't make any difference at all. You can pick your way through the deadly clouds by observing the pattern and waiting for an opening, and meleeing (for instance) a frost giant at that level is going to be lethal regardless of whether you have cold resistance or not.