Tweaking Constriction and Minotaur Headbutt

[tasonir]

So it seems that the general consensus is that minotaurs are the best melee, and that naga constriction is too powerful early game. I've heard constriction is being moved to 13, I've heard nothing about a plan to nerf minotaurs, but imho they're clearly the most powerful, most popular, and probably need it more than anyone. Unless you're intending to keep an "easy mode" melee race, but I don't think that was the intention.

So, I think both abilities should be somewhat more level based, but not in a binary "You have reached level 13 and suddenly remember that half of your body is a snake" sort of way.

Assigning version 0.10 constriction a value of 100 power, a formula like this could be used in 0.11:

constriction power = XL*3+20

So you'd start with roughly a quarter strength constriction, and it will power up to 101% of version .10. Or special case that to 100? The formula can obviously be tweaked. But two points:

1) Gradual is much better, and more logical than a binary switch.
2) Don't you touch my nagas without nerfing minotaurs too

[crate]

HO is already a stronger race than Mi imo, no real need to change minotaurs (and that's even ignoring DD/Ce who are arguably better than either at being a fighter-type character).

[pratamawirya]

Retaliation headbutt isn't that strong, AFAIK. And unless you manage to pump up your STR and DEX drastically (by following Chei, for example), your Mi won't use it that often.

[KoboldLord]

Sometimes a species, background, or build gets popular without actually being strong. Headbutting an entire orc pack to death while you're unable to take a turn because you're eating a chunk makes for a hilarious screenshot to post in SA forum threads, but the fact remains that any decently-leveled character by that point could have likewise tanked those attacks and then tabbed all those orcs to death just the same. Off-turn kills aren't something that most players are used to seeing, so they feel much more powerful than they actually are. Over longer periods of time, retaliatory headbutts are only a minor buff to damage output. They even fail more often against high-hit die opponents and don't work at all against ranged opponents, two situations where you need them most!

[njvack]

Minotaur does, however, have a relatively easy early game without any particular drawbacks (other than poor magic aptitudes) in the late game. KL's example would indeed make for a hilarious screenshot, but those same headbutts can help take out an orc pack or ogre when they're still threatening.

They're not super-powerful in the late game, but I suspect Mi is one of the most reliably streakable races at the moment.

[Blade]

The 'naga forgets that he's a snake until xl13' bit is rather silly, though.

[mumra]

It seems strange to have constriction power tied to XL ... more the sort of thing you'd tie to stats or skills. Could it be a factor of str/dex/unarmed/some combination of those?

[Pereza0]

Dont think removing it till xp 13 is a good idea

Should probably focus more on holding enemies than inflicting damage early on

Its useful to keep enemies from fleeing

Making it depend on unarmed skill is a bad idea, everyone will go unarmed for constriction

[jejorda2]

Could nagas be small at XL1 and large at XL 13, so they gain the ability to constrict more things? Constricting bats and rats doesn't seem overpowered early on if you can't constrict gnolls and orcs.

[galehar]

It seems strange to have constriction power tied to XL ... more the sort of thing you'd tie to stats or skills. Could it be a factor of str/dex/unarmed/some combination of those?

constriction damage is already a factor of str. And gaining abilities at a specific XL isn't something new, and it works well (see Tengu, Draco,...)

[Pereza0]

Yeah, but waiting till level 13 is a bit too much

Tengus get temp flight at xl 5

Nagas could get some weaker substitute of constriction early on too, maybe one that doesnt cause damage
For example, when using mephitic cloud or similar, having confused enemies wandering around faster than you is pretty annoying, and given how slow nagas move, potentially lethal.

Contriction helps a lot here, by keeping them in place

[mumra]

constriction damage is already a factor of str. And gaining abilities at a specific XL isn't something new, and it works well (see Tengu, Draco,...)

Yeah I was just commenting on the OP's formula for scaling the power linearly by XL.

Although in the Naga case I can see why people are saying it seems slightly weird - with the other races it's a defined evolutionary process, but with Naga you always had the tail, why do you only suddenly discover you can constrict with it at XL:13?

[varsovie]

constriction damage is already a factor of str. And gaining abilities at a specific XL isn't something new, and it works well (see Tengu, Draco,...)

Yeah I was just commenting on the OP's formula for scaling the power linearly by XL.

Although in the Naga case I can see why people are saying it seems slightly weird - with the other races it's a defined evolutionary process, but with Naga you always had the tail, why do you only suddenly discover you can constrict with it at XL:13?

Puberty?

Anyway I like the suggestion of Jejorda2, being able to constrict bigger and bigger monsters, like if your tail become bigger/stronger while leveling up.

[mumra]

Puberty?

I had to read back my own post to properly get that ...

[Kate]

At XL13 the tail grows strong enough to actually constrict things, I guess. Same as Black Draconian wings growing strong enough to fly with at XL14, and so on. Could do with a better message though, yeah.

[tasonir]

the main reason I think minos are too strong are their win rates, and the removal of MD in .10 gave them a sizeable increase in aptitudes. The headbutt is fairly minor, but I thought it would be a reasonably small change to not overnerf them. Maybe that's poor design, though. And from the comments, maybe it's entirely unneeded.

Had no idea constriction scaled with strength, yet another reason to love chei I suppose the waiting for level 13 is reasonable, I just think a gradual system where it comes in multiple steps would be more "realistic" while still nerfing it from .10's level.

[sardonica]

the main reason I think minos are too strong are their win rates

Races are not designed and built from the ground up to be equally difficult - there's no reason why one race can't have a higher win rate than another...

[crate]

Online winrates are not particularly meaningful statistics anyway. For what it's worth all three of goodplayers, greatplayers, and greaterplayers have better winrates with HO (and DD and Mf) than Mi in 0.10 or 0.11 versions.

[XuaXua]

I still don't understand why these don't factor in Unarmed Combat skill; unarmed combat : apparently only used for a completely empty fist.

Skill requires experience investment; experience investment is gradual and configurable; investment takes from other skills experience could have been allocated to.

It's its own natural penalty.

[galehar]

I still don't understand why these don't factor in Unarmed Combat skill; unarmed combat : apparently only used for a completely empty fist.

Skill requires experience investment; experience investment is gradual and configurable; investment takes from other skills experience could have been allocated to.

It's its own natural penalty.

Maybe this can help you understand?

  Code:

Although kicks/headbutts from UC skill were flavourful, they mainly just created more message spam about doing no damage.

[XuaXua]

I still don't understand why these don't factor in Unarmed Combat skill; unarmed combat : apparently only used for a completely empty fist.

Skill requires experience investment; experience investment is gradual and configurable; investment takes from other skills experience could have been allocated to.

It's its own natural penalty.

Maybe this can help you understand?

  Code:

Although kicks/headbutts from UC skill were flavourful, they mainly just created more message spam about doing no damage.

That only shows that UC is used solely for empty-fist combat and non-mutation, non-racial auxiliary attacks. It proves UC has zero bearing on racial-based offensive actions (constriction, minotaur headbutts, etc.).

Other than "to clear up confusion" (paraphrased from commit), there is no rationale listed behind making the decision.

[galehar]

there is no rationale listed behind making the decision.

The change was motivated by gameplay reasons, not realism. Nobody trains UC only for aux. The investment is not worth it.

[Blade]

Well, they do, but they shouldn't.

[XuaXua]

there is no rationale listed behind making the decision.

The change was motivated by gameplay reasons, not realism. Nobody trains UC only for aux. The investment is not worth it.

Other than transmutations, why should anyone train unarmed combat, then?

[XuaXua]

You don't give any rationale for why Unarmed Combat skill should affect these things, either.

Based on the definitions of "armed" and "unarmed", one would presume that strikes from natural / racial abilities would constitute "unarmed" since they aren't technically wielding a weapon, but based on what it does, the true name of the skill should be "Punching".

unarmed combat : apparently only used for a completely empty fist.

I don't see why Unarmed Combat skill should give a bonus to fighting with a sword any more than Staves skill should give a bonus to fighting with a sword.

I didn't ask it to give a bonus to fighting with a sword.

[Blade]

there is no rationale listed behind making the decision.

The change was motivated by gameplay reasons, not realism. Nobody trains UC only for aux. The investment is not worth it.

Other than transmutations, why should anyone train unarmed combat, then?

Hint: UC is incredibly powerful with or without transmutations. Try playing a heavy armor CeMo or something sometime. It's absurd to think that "only transmuters fight well unarmed."

As to why it shouldn't help with auxes...unarmed combat. Unarmed. Without weapons. Not "with your body and with weapons." Unarmed combat is fighting without a single thing in your hand. I'm trying to figure out what part of this is difficult for you to understand, but it's not happening.

As for calling it punching...iirc punching is something you do unarmed. See also: clawing, slashing with blade hands, biting as a spider, touching as a lich...

[pratamawirya]

Hint: UC is incredibly powerful with or without transmutations. Try playing a heavy armor CeMo or something sometime. It's absurd to think that "only transmuters fight well unarmed."

QFT. Centaur + UC + holy longbow + medium/heavy armor = this doesn't feel like crawl anymore.

[KoboldLord]

Okay, so I decided to roll a naga conjuror again in trunk. It's been a while since I last played one. Pure caster following Ashenzari, so I've got a venom dagger cursed to my hand which I haven't bothered to skill up at all. XL 16, Dungeon level 18. Defenses 16/16/12, 139hp. I ran into Rupert, and since he spawned with rC+ gear my most practical way to deal with him was simply to melee him to death. He had a +2/+3 great mace of crushing, which isn't anywhere near the worst he could spawn with but isn't terrible for him either. Actually, tab seems to be the most practical way to deal with a lot of things as a naga even with no skill in melee combat, since I cleared Norris the same way the level before and I'm tabbing my way through orc knights and whole ogre packs without any real issue.

I think constriction might need to get scaled back a bit more.

Edit: D19 had Wiglaf. Tab tab tab. Actually got me to half health, though.
Edit2: V2 had Saint Roka. Tab tab tab. I'll stop here, since it's starting to get silly and I think I've made my point.

[galehar]

So, I think both abilities should be somewhat more level based, but not in a binary "You have reached level 13 and suddenly remember that half of your body is a snake" sort of way.

Assigning version 0.10 constriction a value of 100 power, a formula like this could be used in 0.11:

constriction power = XL*3+20

I just remembered that constriction damage is already scaled by XL.

damage * (27 + 2* XL) / 81

[galehar]

Okay, so I decided to roll a naga conjuror again in trunk. It's been a while since I last played one. Pure caster following Ashenzari, so I've got a venom dagger cursed to my hand which I haven't bothered to skill up at all. XL 16, Dungeon level 18. Defenses 16/16/12, 139hp. I ran into Rupert, and since he spawned with rC+ gear my most practical way to deal with him was simply to melee him to death. He had a +2/+3 great mace of crushing, which isn't anywhere near the worst he could spawn with but isn't terrible for him either. Actually, tab seems to be the most practical way to deal with a lot of things as a naga even with no skill in melee combat, since I cleared Norris the same way the level before and I'm tabbing my way through orc knights and whole ogre packs without any real issue.

I think constriction might need to get scaled back a bit more.

Edit: D19 had Wiglaf. Tab tab tab. Actually got me to half health, though.
Edit2: V2 had Saint Roka. Tab tab tab. I'll stop here, since it's starting to get silly and I think I've made my point.

what's your strength?

[KoboldLord]

what's your strength?

10. I haven't intentionally put a single point into it, and I don't have any equipment boosting it.

[pratamawirya]

what's your strength?

10. I haven't intentionally put a single point into it, and I don't have any equipment boosting it.

holy sh...

[galehar]

what's your strength?

10. I haven't intentionally put a single point into it, and I don't have any equipment boosting it.

Does it take a long time to kill them? Because 2d2 damage per turn doesn't sound crazy (and that's at XL27), but maybe the +duration is what makes it too powerful. Constriction damage keeps increasing, so if you've got good defenses, it can get very high after a while.
I'm considering removing or toning down the effect of duration on constriction damage.

For reference:

  Code:

if (attacker->is_player())
    damage = roll_dice(2, div_rand_round(you.strength(), 5));
else
    damage = (attacker->as_monster()->hit_dice + 1) / 2;

damage += div_rand_round(attacker->dur_has_constricted[i], BASELINE_DELAY);
if (attacker->is_player())
    damage = div_rand_round(damage * (27 + 2 * you.experience_level), 81);

damage -= random2(1 + (defender->armour_class() / 2));

damage = timescale_damage(attacker, damage);


[KoboldLord]

It did take some time, and poison stacking from the venom dagger did contribute too. I also hasted up for Wiglaf and Roka, and a dagger is a fast weapon. Does duration increment in absolute time, or whenever the player gets a turn?

[galehar]

It did take some time, and poison stacking from the venom dagger did contribute too. I also hasted up for Wiglaf and Roka, and a dagger is a fast weapon. Does duration increment in absolute time, or whenever the player gets a turn?

Fast actions have no effect, the duration bonus is in absolute time, and damage is scaled to the turn duration.

[KoboldLord]

In that case, just adding a cap to the duration bonus might be good enough. As it is, constriction appears to be a no skill required main damage ability in solo fights, and it should probably just be an extra like other auxiliaries.

[galehar]

In that case, just adding a cap to the duration bonus might be good enough. As it is, constriction appears to be a no skill required main damage ability in solo fights, and it should probably just be an extra like other auxiliaries.

It already does work like auxiliaries because it depends on stats and XL and not skills.
A cap is a bit ugly and spoilery. Also, with the current formula it means that the duration bonus have a relatively stronger effect on weaker constriction. I'm thinking of multiplying the damage with a stepdown of duration. After 5 turns, damage is doubled, after 15, it is tripled, and after 35, it is quadrupled but this is irrelevant since the constrictee is long dead by then.
Base damage for strong constrictors would need to be adjusted down.

[smock]

That damage increases with duration is a nice bit of flavor but it is not at all necessary for constriction to work. Damage from constriction is, after all, cumulative. Being dangerous for players already and overpowered when used by players I don't think there's much of an advantage to retaining the increase in damage over time, apart from flavor concerns. Much of the power of constriction is making movement hard/slow, in any case.