Holy Pan level


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Blades Runner

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Post Tuesday, 10th April 2012, 14:28

Holy Pan level

wow, holy pan levels, that sounds really mean!
i guess the times of easy pan (at least in comparison to hells) are going to be over.
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Abyss Ambulator

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Post Tuesday, 10th April 2012, 18:13

Re: YASD - MuWz killed by ridiculous holy Pan floor

It's brutal, but survivable. I took a Demonspawn through that level and had some scary moments, but I came out alive.

But yeah, having a second high-caliber summon other than Haunt would have been a good idea. (I used Shadow Creatures. How else is a DS going to get Daeva allies?)
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 10th April 2012, 20:13

Re: YASD - MuWz killed by ridiculous holy Pan floor

Holypan is pretty easy to leave if you have magic mapping and ctele. The room with the 3 exits has no enemies in it and is large enough that you will reliably land inside.
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Post Wednesday, 11th April 2012, 02:41

Re: YASD - MuWz killed by ridiculous holy Pan floor

Can this level generate if one worships the three 'good' gods?
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Abyss Ambulator

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Post Wednesday, 11th April 2012, 02:50

Re: YASD - MuWz killed by ridiculous holy Pan floor

No.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Wednesday, 11th April 2012, 03:08

Re: YASD - MuWz killed by ridiculous holy Pan floor

I played the holy pan level on a naga, and it was pretty tough, but doable. I think I spent at least 30 minutes on it, though, it's huge and loaded with tough enemies. To the OP, yes, pearl dragons are -insane-. I had a possible risk of death as I blinked away one from one (no way to blink out of LOS in one turn) but fortunately it just moved towards me rather than breathing. A breath would have killed me no question.

This quote about pearl dragons from the knowledge bots is entirely accurate: Up to 162 per breath plus 48 per turn in clouds. Cerebov's firestorm is up to 136 (76 with rF+++) + resistable clouds. "Caution advised" is an understatement.

Note that the 162 is a max, not an average, but it doesn't take into account your mummies' vulnerability to it :P

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Post Wednesday, 11th April 2012, 06:33

Re: YASD - MuWz killed by ridiculous holy Pan floor

Silver stars are the best. Holy orbs of fire with speed 10 and unresistable attacks (120+ damage) mummies are vulnerable to? Enjoy.

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Post Wednesday, 11th April 2012, 07:06

Re: YASD - MuWz killed by ridiculous holy Pan floor

cerebovssquire wrote:Silver stars are the best. Holy orbs of fire with speed 10 and unresistable attacks (120+ damage) mummies are vulnerable to? Enjoy.

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Spider Stomper

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Post Wednesday, 11th April 2012, 07:51

Re: YASD - MuWz killed by ridiculous holy Pan floor

I wish the Crusade card wasn't nerfed in 0.10, that way you can convert some random monster permanently and simply zap it with a Wand of Polymorph Other until you get a Pearl Dragon (sounds like best ally for extended). Did that in 0.9 with a converted Black Mamba; eventually got a Golden Dragon.
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Post Wednesday, 11th April 2012, 12:10

Re: YASD - MuWz killed by ridiculous holy Pan floor

Just survived one, but it was pretty close. Stupid me did not think about ending necromutation until the very end though, and also did not use mapping and cTele.
Still, kind of brutal if you are just scooting around in pan and have only a hellion island or a random pan lord room as dangers in mind.
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Post Wednesday, 11th April 2012, 13:29

Re: YASD - MuWz killed by ridiculous holy Pan floor

Playing that holy floor with a DDEE of Mahkleb was the most fun I've ever had in crawl outside raiding Zigs. It was so cool to discover that Mahkleb protects you from good god wrath.

I also learned that Apportation is great for taking out phoenixes in a hurry among larger groups of enemies. Just yoink! and pray.

Pearl Dragons and Silver Stars aren't to be flexed with.

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Post Wednesday, 11th April 2012, 13:41

Re: YASD - MuWz killed by ridiculous holy Pan floor

Here's the best part. I vaguely remember reading somewhere that when this level was put into 0.10 trunk, it wasn't meant to be anything resembling balanced or fair. It was just a testing ground for large swarms of holy-aligned monsters, and balancing would come later.

The fact that it made it into the 0.10 release version pretty much intact says something. What, exactly, I'm not sure.
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Swamp Slogger

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Post Wednesday, 11th April 2012, 17:24

Re: YASD - MuWz killed by ridiculous holy Pan floor

It's a really fun floor, but once you've done it once it loses the appeal a bit, it'd be nice to have a demonic rune in it sometimes or something (is this possible already?) Or more pre-defined pan levels.

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Post Wednesday, 11th April 2012, 17:30

Re: YASD - MuWz killed by ridiculous holy Pan floor

There could be an angelic rune.

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Post Wednesday, 11th April 2012, 17:31

Re: YASD - MuWz killed by ridiculous holy Pan floor

Dustbin wrote:It's a really fun floor, but once you've done it once it loses the appeal a bit, it'd be nice to have a demonic rune in it sometimes or something (is this possible already?) Or more pre-defined pan levels.


I see a lot of appeal in multiple !cure mut potions.

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Shoals Surfer

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Post Thursday, 12th April 2012, 16:46

Re: YASD - MuWz killed by ridiculous holy Pan floor

Man that holy pan level is absolutely batcrap. I splatted a MuSu so hard in there... not even remotely prepared for it, no way will I run a Mu or DS thru pan until it's nerfed...
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Spider Stomper

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Post Thursday, 12th April 2012, 16:52

Re: YASD - MuWz killed by ridiculous holy Pan floor

Summon Dragon didn't take care of it?
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Post Thursday, 12th April 2012, 22:38

Re: YASD - MuWz killed by ridiculous holy Pan floor

This story has a happy ending, I just finished clearing that entire floor with my new DSSu, dragons > ophans/cherubs/shedu/angels/daeva/pearl dragons/silverstars/paladins/phoenixes/holy deer and the boss Seraph. I was able to find out that the floor in question is laid out the exact same way every time and is enormous. It has areas devoted to each of the 3 Good Gods, at least two scripted silver stars and pearl dragons, and tons of restore ability, cure mut, heal wounds, and curing potions. It's great if you need an artifact large shield, I found three. There's a vault of treasure behind the seraph as well, and I feel like this area cements TSO as the leader of these three deities. Vehumet protected me from about 75% of the punishments that TSO cast on me for kills, and I resisted most of the rest, because they are fire-based. It was very gratifying to come clean this out as revenge.

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Post Friday, 13th April 2012, 02:02

Re: YASD - MuWz killed by ridiculous holy Pan floor

Stormfox wrote:Here's the best part. I vaguely remember reading somewhere that when this level was put into 0.10 trunk, it wasn't meant to be anything resembling balanced or fair. It was just a testing ground for large swarms of holy-aligned monsters, and balancing would come later.

The fact that it made it into the 0.10 release version pretty much intact says something. What, exactly, I'm not sure.

It wasn't designed to be unfair. I made sure to provide huge areas were there aren't many monsters (only random spawns) and an easy-to-teleport-to room with exits in it, for characters with magic mapping and cTele (a very, very good idea if you're doing pan). There's also a bonus exit placed randomly in the level.

This level is absolutely brutal to mummies, but even they can clear it if they're careful. Be careful around pearl dragons and you should be fine with regular dragon spam tactics. Daeva smiting is probably the biggest danger for you.

To be honest I was worried this level would be *more* deadly to unholy characters. I think I overestimated that. The level is indeed dangerous, but survivable enough. All the mummy/ds/etc deaths I've watched in this level were avoidable ones, had they been played optimally (even ridiculous ones involving pearl dragons).

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Post Friday, 13th April 2012, 02:06

Re: YASD - MuWz killed by ridiculous holy Pan floor

cerebovssquire wrote:
Dustbin wrote:It's a really fun floor, but once you've done it once it loses the appeal a bit, it'd be nice to have a demonic rune in it sometimes or something (is this possible already?) Or more pre-defined pan levels.


I see a lot of appeal in multiple !cure mut potions.

You also get a ton of blessed weapons from the monsters, and a large loot room if you can get past the guards. Maybe a holy rune would be worth having (equivalent to the demonic rune, just with a different name). I don't mind not having a rune though - the level is supposed to be skippable... more of an optional detour.
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Abyss Ambulator

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Post Friday, 13th April 2012, 03:12

Re: YASD - MuWz killed by ridiculous holy Pan floor

I'd really like it if there was a holy rune as an alternative to demonic -- it could serve as a bragging rights reward in addition to potentially saving time in pan -- if you get unlucky, it can take a long time to find a demonic rune; having a level that you could see immediately had one would be nice.
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Spider Stomper

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Post Friday, 13th April 2012, 03:28

Re: YASD - MuWz killed by ridiculous holy Pan floor

Is a holy rune really necessary though? IMHO, crawl already has 17 different runes (including Spider Nest), and unless there will be multiple randomly generated holy pan levels similar to the plain-old demonic ones an additional rune is a bit overkill (of course, if the boss is an avatar of TSO or something that would be sick as ****).
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Post Friday, 13th April 2012, 03:35

Re: YASD - MuWz killed by ridiculous holy Pan floor

sir_laser wrote:if the boss is an avatar of TSO

Or maybe...his son!
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Abyss Ambulator

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Post Friday, 13th April 2012, 04:37

Re: YASD - MuWz killed by ridiculous holy Pan floor

sir_laser wrote:Is a holy rune really necessary though? IMHO, crawl already has 17 different runes (including Spider Nest), and unless there will be multiple randomly generated holy pan levels similar to the plain-old demonic ones an additional rune is a bit overkill (of course, if the boss is an avatar of TSO or something that would be sick as ****).

Not in addition, but in rotation with. The total would still stay at 15, of course.

(all of this is really, really offtopic for a yasd thread, though)

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Post Friday, 13th April 2012, 05:22

Re: YASD - MuWz killed by ridiculous holy Pan floor

Making the holypan rune unique (i.e. not just a renamed demonic rune) doesn't make sense since the level won't generate if you worship any of the good gods.

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Post Friday, 13th April 2012, 05:25

Re: YASD - MuWz killed by ridiculous holy Pan floor

evilmike wrote:
To be honest I was worried this level would be *more* deadly to unholy characters. I think I overestimated that. The level is indeed dangerous, but survivable enough. All the mummy/ds/etc deaths I've watched in this level were avoidable ones, had they been played optimally (even ridiculous ones involving pearl dragons).


To continue the offtopic derailment of this thread, I just wanted to say the level is really fun and well balanced for non-undead. I haven't played undead much so I can't say how it is for them, but for the rest of the races, it's very well designed :)

Blades Runner

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Post Friday, 13th April 2012, 07:50

Re: YASD - MuWz killed by ridiculous holy Pan floor

well, if there is treasure in it i ain't complaining! too bad i skipped it!
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Vaults Vanquisher

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Post Friday, 13th April 2012, 12:40

Re: YASD - MuWz killed by ridiculous holy Pan floor

The level isn't unbalanced for unholies. My DSGl stomped it just fine, maybe you all just didn't put together a good enough character for whatever reason (pan has always been very good at killing off characters that only look powerful, I've been there too). Entered the level at xl25 by the way.
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Abyss Ambulator

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Post Friday, 13th April 2012, 15:55

Re: YASD - MuWz killed by ridiculous holy Pan floor

evilmike wrote:It wasn't designed to be unfair.

I think the implication in the comment that I read (which I may be misremembering, either having read it or the content thereof) was not that it was deliberately designed to be unfair or unbalanced, but that when it was first introduced, nobody had a good idea of how hard it would be so balancing would come later. Apparently it turned out okay in the end.

evilmike wrote:To be honest I was worried this level would be *more* deadly to unholy characters. I think I overestimated that. The level is indeed dangerous, but survivable enough. All the mummy/ds/etc deaths I've watched in this level were avoidable ones, had they been played optimally (even ridiculous ones involving pearl dragons).

I survived it with a Ds, and I suck at the game. Anyone with more skill than I have stands a half decent chance.
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Post Friday, 13th April 2012, 22:23

Re: YASD - MuWz killed by ridiculous holy Pan floor

I just went through this level with a Naga today and found it a lot of fun. It's my first real time there -- the last character I had made a hasty retreat. Though I wasn't undead, I found that pearl dragons and silver stars would fall to about three Fire Storms and the boss took a few Orbs of Destruction. I was very careful to avoid going into Pan until I felt "ready" and even so it's been a challenge as I keep getting tormented within an inch of my life. :P

Here's what I like about the area:

1) General flavor of the deities, their conversations with the PC, and extra touches like the phoenixes.
2) Nice shields and holy weapons! I had a good artifact large shield but found one I like even better. :) Lots of sacred scourges, eudemon blades, etc. that will come in handy for the rest of Pan. For this reason alone I was very excited to find myself in the Holy level as my second Pan level.
3) Lots of nice loot, such as multiple potions of cure corruption. Pearl dragon hides and armour.
4) Finally, there's food! Good thing, since I spent over an hour IRL in there. Slowly but surely, eating beef and foul along the way.

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Post Friday, 13th April 2012, 23:45

Re: YASD - MuWz killed by ridiculous holy Pan floor

I find the Holy Pan level to be a little bit of a grind, but generally too rewarding to just skip. The most dangerous monsters are the pearl dragons and silver stars, both of which hit extremely hard but have a bit of a glass jaw, so as long as I get the drop on them and am fully rested they don't give me too much trouble. On the other hand, at least half of the non-dangerous monsters are packing large shields, which means fighting them slows to a crawl as they block many attacks. I tend to spend a lot of time chipping down a couple angels and some lesser fodder, and then I have to retreat to recover all my mp and a good chunk of hp. The wandering monsters spawn frequently enough that I don't necessarily make any progress after clearing out a half dozen holy monsters.

On the other hand, loot is extremely nice. The flip side of so many monsters with large shields is that you can reasonably expect one of all the common shield egos to generate, filling in whichever you happen to want for clearing Hell or Zot. Enough monsters drop corpses that you can pretty much disregard the possibility of ever running out of food even if you use high-hunger abilities, so you can grind here for xp and loot as long as you want and the farming never runs out. Pretty high returns on xp with respect to real-time spent, too, much better than normal Pan levels. The eudemon blades are likewise plentiful, although they may or may not be useful. I usually see at least one pearl dragon armor not including the one taken off the pearl dragon, not that it's necessarily better than fire or ice dragon armor by this point. And of course, there's the valuable loot in the treasure rooms.

The Holy Pan level does successfully encourage me to put off Pan until I have a fast way to recover mp, at least when I'm running a caster. There's entirely too much 5-mashing involved if I don't have Sublimation of Blood or a Crystal Ball to work with, and it gets downright frustrating when I can't make any headway at all through the throngs of individually non-threatening holy beings.

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Post Friday, 13th April 2012, 23:58

Re: YASD - MuWz killed by ridiculous holy Pan floor

Very clear and organized, KoboldLord.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Saturday, 14th April 2012, 08:55

Re: Holy Pan level

relevant posts moved to Game Design Discussion

Abyss Ambulator

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Post Saturday, 14th April 2012, 09:40

Re: Holy Pan level

Slightly off-topic, but also kind of relevant:

Living characters have a number of ways to protect themselves from "unholy" attacks, eg draining, torment, but there is no way for an undead character to gain any kind of resistance to holy attacks.

Should they be able to? The answer may well be "no" as holy attacks are sacred to the good gods and nothing a mortal can do can counteract them, but it does seem a bit cruel to undead and demonspawn (and even to living characters, as some holy attacks, eg pearl dragon breath is irresistible and very dangerous to living characters even without the extra damage to unholies.)

Some ideas:
Ring of life protection also acts as a ring of "unlife protection" for the undead.
Pearl dragon armour - maybe it should be more like the other dragon armours and protect against the dragon's own breath - ie holy power rather than negative energy.
At high piety, Yred could give you and all your minions protection from holy attacks and dispel undead.

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Post Saturday, 14th April 2012, 17:50

Re: Holy Pan level

I think undead and demonspawn should not be able to resist holy attacks, especially without the direct help of a god. Undeads/demonspawns can resist the relatively common and otherwise not reliably resistable unholy/evil attacks, torment and hellfire; so I think it is balanced that they are vulnerable to a relatively rare irresistable attack.

I think having a third irresistable attack besides torment/hellfire is a good thing; if holy beings become much more common, then maybe an (evokable?) item shall be added which allows not particularly unholy/evil characters to avoid holy damage, probably not as a direct resistance but by pacifying holy beings and making them leave the level granting half of their XP value (like monsters pacified by the Elyvion ability).

ring of life protection should not protect unlife, if holy resistance is granted by an item (I think it is better if it's not granted) it should be pearl dragon armour (and then it should not grant rN+, and the good gods should hate its use -- after all, it is required to kill a great holy being in order to create it).

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Post Saturday, 14th April 2012, 23:11

Re: Holy Pan level

Do demonic weapons do extra damage against holy beings?

Temple Termagant

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Post Sunday, 15th April 2012, 04:24

Re: Holy Pan level

I like the idea of holy resist being exclusive to Yredelemnul. Yred's already anti-holy and giving people a small reason to want to take Yred into extended wouldn't be a terrible thing.

Yred's profane servitors already resist holy. What about instead of a new god ability, adding a resist holy effect to servitor umbras? Umbras already cancel halos so it seems like a nice fit.
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Post Sunday, 15th April 2012, 04:50

Re: Holy Pan level

umrain wrote:Yred's already anti-holy and giving people a small reason to want to take Yred into extended wouldn't be a terrible thing.

I think people avoid taking Yred into extended because there isn't enough living stuff to maintain piety. One holy Pan level isn't going to change that.
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