The Tavern

Unarmed combat, while reaching a high rate of attack, suffers from three major problems.

1) Losing a slot for ego items
2) Sacrificing brands
3) Mechanics of how damage is calculated

We all know that given the nature of armor, low-damage attacks can be at a significant disadvantage but while all other combat types have "low-damage" and "high-damage" variants, there's only one Unarmed combat that can only really be improved through transmutations. Even short blades and other fast weapons can partially overcome their low-damage issues by using brands but this option isn't available to unarmed fighters. I'd suggest two, possibly three weapon options that use the standard damage calculations for other weapons but based on the Unarmed Combat "weapon" skill.

Brass Knuckles: A simple series of connected metal rings worn around the knuckles that concentrates the impact of strikes by the fists. Base Damage 2, Base Accuracy 4, Delay 100%. About as common as a sabre.

Cestus: A padded, elbow-length leather glove fitted with plates and/or studs of metal, stone, or other hard material around key impact points (knuckles, back of hand, elbow, etc). Base Damage 6, Base Accuracy 0, Delay 130%. About as common as a Great Sword.

(maybe) Hammer Fist: A large frame worn around the entire arm made of hard material and ending in a large, flat striking surface over the front of the fist. Base Damage 9, Base Accuracy -2, Delay 140%

Opinions?

Unarmed Combat at high skills levels has great attack speed and damage which is enhanced further by transmutations, isn't even two-handed, and doesn't require floor drops. Please explain why you think it needs a nerf. The reasons you give are 3 things it needs to be balanced, not things that make it bad to the point that it needs a buff to be a viable choice.
30 base damage at 27 skill is not exactly low. It isn't executioner's axe level but it's also speed 5 and doesn't require an item. And with Blade Hands every second attack ends in !!! anyway.
If anything it could be nerfed further. But I think the current state is OK.

Also

(maybe) Hammer Fist: A large frame worn around the entire arm made of hard material and ending in a large, flat striking surface over the front of the fist. Base Damage 9, Base Accuracy -2, Delay 140%

sounds so hilariously weak and impractical.

I prefer to wield a choko in my hand in order to completely remove the Unarmed Combat skill from the fight equation.

Unarmed weapons have been suggested a few times, and I tend to think it's nice variation and flavour.

Rather than being strictly better than plain UC they should offer some balanced options - faster attacks for weaker damage, stronger damage for reduced accuracy, etc.; and of course any of these options would use the gloves slot, so it's also a trade-off with better AC or resists. I believe someone (Nicolae?) was recently attempting to make some rElec-branded gauntlets with a movement malus.

So, rather than buffing UC, this could be used as an option to add some variation and extra choices to the playstyle.

It adds variation to the playstyle but removes differentiation from the weapon classes. Plus, transmutations exist and are a more interesting way of doing this (as in, the weapons don't vary according to spells cast but by weapon type, brand, +/-).

UC is strong enough as is, and I think this would cross over with tmut far too much to be a common weapon type. A few fixed arts that affect UC would be quite interesting though.

cerebovssquire wrote:It adds variation to the playstyle but removes differentiation from the weapon classes. Plus, transmutations exist and are a more interesting way of doing this (as in, the weapons don't vary according to spells cast but by weapon type, brand, +/-).

Well, transmutations have way more effects than just varying the attack style. This would is no way nullify the need for them. I agree they're more interesting if you had to pick one or the other, but this is a situation where you can have both.

I'm not really sure how it removes anything from weapons - they will still be mechanically completely different, and you're still restricting your ability to wield anything in that slot.

Anyway; I never play non-magic-users, so Transmutations are fine for me, I just think there could be more options for melee-only builds who want to go UC, without making anything strictly stronger or affecting balance.

minmay wrote:"unarmed combat is different from weapons so let's make it the same as weapons"

My opinion is "unarmed combat has distinctly less choice than weapons so let's see if it's interesting to add more choice".

mumra wrote:My opinion is "unarmed combat has distinctly less choice than weapons so let's see if it's interesting to add more choice".

There's still choices involved with UC -- the use of Transmutations, or Confusing Touch (is that still around?) -- but they're not item-based choices, which I like.

nicolae wrote:
mumra wrote:My opinion is "unarmed combat has distinctly less choice than weapons so let's see if it's interesting to add more choice".

There's still choices involved with UC -- the use of Transmutations, or Confusing Touch (is that still around?) -- but they're not item-based choices, which I like.

Wasn't it you making those elec gauntlets? Or am I getting mixed up?

The thing is, weapon users also have the spell-based choices - you can mix Transmutations in with weapon use, you can use brand spells to buff your weapons, etc.; and UC already has item-based choices in the form of e.g. rings of slaying. I just think it's fairly reasonable that choice of gloves / boots could be somewhere where an extra decision is factored in for UC. Either way, I wouldn't say it's a priority

mumra wrote:I believe someone (Nicolae?) was recently attempting to make some rElec-branded gauntlets with a movement malus.

Whoa.

What I read: Gauntlets could potentially affect weapon attack speed.

XuaXua wrote:Whoa.

What I read: Gauntlets could potentially affect weapon attack speed.

Yes, I recall the idea was they were big, cumbersome, rusty things. They might even have reduced EV.

mumra wrote:Wasn't it you making those elec gauntlets? Or am I getting mixed up?

I think it was MyOtheHedgeFox, I haven't bothered trying my hand yet at adding anything that requires a compiler.

nicolae wrote:
mumra wrote:My opinion is "unarmed combat has distinctly less choice than weapons so let's see if it's interesting to add more choice".

There's still choices involved with UC -- the use of Transmutations, or Confusing Touch (is that still around?) -- but they're not item-based choices, which I like.

These aren't really choices though. If you've decided to go unarmed you're likely A. starting as a transmuter or B. Starting as a race that has some way of buffing unarmed(Troll, Ghoul, Kenku, etc). The only reason you wouldn't be able to cast is an unarmed zerker which would again pick from a race that has some unarmed weapon(claws for example.)

If you've decided to go unarmed you will NOT be passing up confusing touch if you can cast. Likewise if you find the books you will almost certainly pick up ice form and blade hands(which i believe can both stack with confusing touch).

In short if you've made the decision to go unarmed your choice tree is pretty much done by the time you enter the game. The only "choice" from then on out is the one most players encounter which is "how do i stick to my goal with whatever spellbooks I find."

I'm not sure if unarmed "weapons" are the way to go, but some way of differentiating the subset would be nice. The idea that an unarmed human monk could actually work(without an uphill battle) would be nice, and the number of races that get aux unarmed attacks is pretty large, but it's rarely worth throwing skill points in it since your main weapon skill will be more important through the majority of the game.

Even if all unarmed characters went Transmutations (they don't, by the way), there's still choices to be made with forms. For example, do I pop Statue Form to make me much more tougher for this upcoming fight or Dragon Form so I can pwn all my foes faster in said fight? I'm being chased by an Viper at low HP and am waiting for tele to kick in. Do I use Spider Form and risk the -rPois to move away faster or do I use Ice Form for the rPois but risk getting bitten to death? And so forth.

Some unarmed characters don't take Trans though. Some, such as Conjurers and Summoners, might take Unarmed as a reliable back-up attack that they don't need to worry about finding a good weapon for. And even then, Unarmed really doesn't need a buff, it's just barely on the safe side of being too strong. For example, my DrTM of Chei 3-shotted the Royal Jelly with Dragon Form and 2-shotted Mennas and Orbs of Fire. I haven't managed to pull that off with an Executioner's Axe. (Do note that said super high damage probably wouldn't be possible without the Chei/Dragon Form combo).

midknight129 wrote:We all know that given the nature of armor, low-damage attacks can be at a significant disadvantage but while all other combat types have "low-damage" and "high-damage" variants, there's only one Unarmed combat that can only really be improved through transmutations. Even short blades and other fast weapons can partially overcome their low-damage issues by using brands but this option isn't available to unarmed fighters.

Seems like you're contradicting yourself.
And I agree with cerebovssquire and minmay. UC is a unique playstyle which offers plenty of choice. Making it work like weapons is a terrible idea.

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Unarmed "Weapons"

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