Non-Demonic Summoning Path

[donblas]

While I like the idea of bending the demonic to ones will and summoning having backfire costs (hostile summons), I'd like to be able to play a game with non-evil summoning (and worship a good god for example). Right now, the books with the relevant spells "Book of Beasts" and "Book of the Dragon" are not guaranteed outside of a long game with Sif. Also there are gaps in the spell list (5, 6, 8).

What do people think about:

- A second starting book (Beasts has Hydra, so that's probably right out).
There seems be a trend in getting rid of this (Cj used to have a choice), is it a design goal to move away from these? (Weapons classes get to choose weapon type).
- Veh or another god providing a high level book with Hyrda/Dragon?
- Adding more spells to flesh things out?

Or is summoning so OP that any changes are considered unwelcome?

[Kate]

The plan is for Vehumet to lose the summoning aspect (as well as moving away from guaranteed book gifts), and even besides that it was a deliberate choice to make Vehumet not gift Hydra and Dragon when they were added. And the Summoner starting book already contains Ice Beast and Scorpions, which should be plenty to get going with - I'm not really convinced that worshipping a good god and using summons would be infeasible or even especially difficult as-is.

[donblas]

I guess you are right, I guess I'm comparing Sif/Veh/Kib, but no other god gives spell books at all.

Nevermind then.

[That Other Guy]

The plan is for Vehumet to lose the summoning aspect (as well as moving away from guaranteed book gifts), and even besides that it was a deliberate choice to make Vehumet not gift Hydra and Dragon when they were added. And the Summoner starting book already contains Ice Beast and Scorpions, which should be plenty to get going with - I'm not really convinced that worshipping a good god and using summons would be infeasible or even especially difficult as-is.

Is Vehumet going to receive some other buff then? I think he'd fall to the wayside even more if he lost the ability to support summoners. I recall reading a proposal to change Vehumet in such a way that he gifted individual spells, I think that's a great idea and enhances him thematically, but I'd hate to see him not being able to compete with everyone's favorite divine librarian.

On a more related note, I don't think non-demonic summoning is all that difficult, by the time I can get a level 9 spell online, I've typically found a few sources of summon dragon/hydra.

[evilmike]

Is Vehumet going to receive some other buff then? I think he'd fall to the wayside even more if he lost the ability to support summoners. I recall reading a proposal to change Vehumet in such a way that he gifted individual spells, I think that's a great idea and enhances him thematically, but I'd hate to see him not being able to compete with everyone's favorite divine librarian.

Vehumet is one of the most popular gods. Here's some stats from the tournament (counts all games, not just wins)

37127 games for * (t): 22292x , 3604x Trog, 1791x Okawaru, 1231x Vehumet, 941x Sif Muna, 886x Yredelemnul, 750x Zin, 700x Lugonu, 663x Makhleb, 631x Kikubaaqudgha, 587x Beogh, 569x Nemelex Xobeh, 551x Xom, 541x Ashenzari, 538x Cheibriados, 326x Elyvilon, 313x The Shining One, 166x Fedhas, 47x Jiyva

[tasonir]

with the amount of nagas I splatted, I think I'm about 10% of that chei stat

Honestly I pick vehumet when I start a caster mostly because I want the mana refund and range extension. The books aren't really critical, usually because I die before I get them The first gift is really important to get mystic blast if you have resist problems beforehand, and some other good blasters...but by the time the next 5 come you should be established?

[XuaXua]

Summon Canine Companion is awesome because they see invisible.

[nagdon]

GIve imps a chance of hostility -- demon summoning shouldn't be riskless. Or maybe give imps a chance to start fighting each other -- for example if you cast summon imp, each previously summoned imp has 20% chance to become hostile. This allows summoning one imp to cover retreat, but makes it very hard to attack a unique with a horde of 10 imps.

Also note that although Summon Scorpions isn't evil, it is a Poison spell, so TSO hates it, and Elyvilion dislikes allies dying, so Summon Scorpions is only useful with Zin (among the good gods).

As there are lots of new spiders added recently, a level 5/6 Summon Spider (Summ/Poison) spell would be a nice addition -- it would also help with the fact that Poison lacks high-level spells.

[nicolae]

As there are lots of new spiders added recently, a level 5/6 Summon Spider (Summ/Poison) spell would be a nice addition -- it would also help with the fact that Poison lacks high-level spells.

I was going to say this would be too similar to Summon Scorpions, but then I remembered all the variety among spiders now, and Summon Spiders could be interesting if it had a good selection of spiders to choose from (redbacks, tarantellas, summonable orb spiders would be neat).

[XuaXua]

Also note that although Summon Scorpions isn't evil, it is a Poison spell, so TSO hates it, and Elyvilion dislikes allies dying, so Summon Scorpions is only useful with Zin (among the good gods).

I almost never cast Summon Scorpion (only when I don't have Summon Butterflies) because more often than not, I will get more than one adjacent hostile scorpion. It's very discouraging.

In fact, the penalties with summoning (reduced XP, hostility chance) are almost not worth the bother.

[galehar]

In fact, the penalties with summoning (reduced XP, hostility chance) are almost not worth the bother.

Unless you want to win.

[mumra]

Also note that although Summon Scorpions isn't evil, it is a Poison spell, so TSO hates it, and Elyvilion dislikes allies dying, so Summon Scorpions is only useful with Zin (among the good gods).

I almost never cast Summon Scorpion (only when I don't have Summon Butterflies) because more often than not, I will get more than one adjacent hostile scorpion. It's very discouraging.

In fact, the penalties with summoning (reduced XP, hostility chance) are almost not worth the bother.

Just hide behind the other adjacent, friendly scorpion. You friendlies will always outnumber and kill the unfriendlies.

Also it's best to summon them early on in a battle; they're not a good escape mechanism to use when you're nearly dead.

[XuaXua]

In fact, the penalties with summoning (reduced XP, hostility chance) are almost not worth the bother.

Unless you want to win.

I said ALMOST.

[Blade]

In fact, the penalties with summoning (reduced XP, hostility chance) are almost not worth the bother.

Unless you want to win.

I said ALMOST.

The only thing that makes it -almost- not worth the bother is tedium. The penalties make it -almost- not incredibly overpowered.

[absolutego]

you don't cast scorpions in corridors or the like. they aren't effective, you're cutting down on the number of summons, and they can cut you off.

[mumra]

Generally if a spell isn't working out for me, my first thought is "I'm doing this wrong". Each spell is designed to be tactically and mechanically distinct; it's one of those things that keeps you coming back

[MyOtheHedgeFox]

GIve imps a chance of hostility -- demon summoning shouldn't be riskless.

What about making them neutral rather than hostile, but with a much larger chance?
"Hey, a dungeon! Nuts to you, summoner, I am going to go and explore it!"

[mumra]

GIve imps a chance of hostility -- demon summoning shouldn't be riskless.

What about making them neutral rather than hostile, but with a much larger chance?
"Hey, a dungeon! Nuts to you, summoner, I am going to go and explore it!"

Or, they start off friendly but have a low chance each turn to defect. It definitely fits with the mischievous nature of imps.