Trove asking for 18 scrolls of identify on D26

[smock]

I just encountered a trove asking for 18 scrolls of identify on D26. It seems that it might be difficult to accumulate 18 scrolls of identify, having played so much of the game already. (Now that cards can be identified, I rarely have scrolls of identify lying around.) Does anyone see this as a problem? If so, maybe late troves could ask for a rune or the horn of Geryon or whatnot.

[KoboldLord]

By the time I've cleared everything up to Zot, I usually have 30-40 scrolls of identify just sitting around that I have no hope of ever finding a use for. If anything, that trove cost is too cheap. Of course, I don't bother identifying plain or ornate decks because I know I won't get anything useful from them anyway. Without the Nemelex bonus, you need pretty high evocations to get a worthwhile effect even from legendary decks.

[dk]

A trove can already ask for the horn of Geryon. I once went to hell to get it in a three rune game just to enter a treasure trove.

IIRC there was a suggestion in another thread to generate treasure troves at the start of each branch that need the rune of this branch to unlock, to motivate the player to get the runes early.

I once had a trove asking for ?ID too, and it was no big deal to get those scrolls (if you don't waste them).

[Jeremiah]

It's probably just my imagination and the quirks of the RNG, but identify scrolls do seem to be rarer in 0.10. In my last few games I've still been carrying around un-ID'd potions and jewelry on Vault:8 because I haven't had enough scrolls to identify them all.

[Blade]

iirc troves can also ask for artifacts that generated in shops, including the sword of jihad for >20k gold. Not every trove is meant to be entered.

[galehar]

IIRC there was a suggestion in another thread to generate treasure troves at the start of each branch that need the rune of this branch to unlock, to motivate the player to get the runes early.

The idea is for a treasure mini-vault with a window and a locked door, not a portal like a trove. So you can see the loot and make strategic decision about which rune to go after first.

[XuaXua]

IIRC there was a suggestion in another thread to generate treasure troves at the start of each branch that need the rune of this branch to unlock, to motivate the player to get the runes early.

The idea is for a treasure mini-vault with a window and a locked door, not a portal like a trove. So you can see the loot and make strategic decision about which rune to go after first.

They're all filled with mimics anyway.

[smock]

30 spare scrolls of identify? Wow.

I usually ID plain and ornate decks, mostly for sage, focus, and experience cards. But I've leaned on plain decks of escape before, even with 0 evocations. Quite possibly there are better options. I also carry around scrolls before bringing them back to a stash which I know is not optimal play -- it would be better to leave scrolls of identify on the ground I think. I don't conservation in the referenced game, which I know makes a big difference.

Interesting -- there were, I think, 11 scroll of identify on D26 and D27. Does Crawl the generate all the consumables needed to enter a portal after the portal is generated?

[mageykun]

If you find a legendary or ornate Elixir card, that's a panic button worth having, even without Nemelex. (More broadly though, I think non Nemelex deck utility depends on whether you went melee or caster. Casters have other healing and escape options and little incentive to further diversify skill point distribution into evocations, whereas pure melee often needs enough evocations to work at least a ring of levitation if nothing else, and benefits from the extra options more).

Interesting -- there were, I think, 11 scroll of identify on D26 and D27. Does Crawl the generate all the consumables needed to enter a portal after the portal is generated?

There's no guarantee you'll find what you need without Pan / Abyss scumming.

[Blade]

using ?identify on every (or any) plain deck is almost certainly a waste except in a few very unusual circumstances. On ornate, it can be good but I usually don't bother. Usually I only identify legendary decks, and only for things like tomb or elixir. Looking for sage, focus, and experience is incredibly wasteful.

Also, the game makes no effort to generate items based on what troves want. It was just luck.

[mumra]

I think the problem with troves is that most of the time they're a no-brainer. Either they're "free" (as in, requires something you won't need, e.g. dragon armour when you're a caster; or, a rune which you'll either have anyway or which is worth the experience and loot to go and get, and the trove is just an added bonus). Or they're incredibly expensive, requiring items which you definitely will need, in exchange for a chance at some loot which you quite possibly won't need -- it's not a remotely good gamble and therefore it's a no-brainer to avoid. So we end up with very few situations when a trove is actually a meaningful decision.

I've only actually been able to afford a trove fee on a very small number of occasions, and on all of those the contents were somewhat lacklustre anyway ... they certainly didn't convince me it'd be worth spending a significant amount of a desirable resource to get one.

Regarding the OP's example - I just wouldn't go for it. By the time you're able to clear up to Zot, it's very unlikely the trove will contain anything you need; and even then you've spent all your id scrolls so you can't find out what any of the items are anyway. The best you could find is an elusive wand or resist that you haven't found yet, and you have just as good a chance finding that from a scroll of acquirement as from a trove.

Troves might become a more relevant decision with some of the following:

- Ensure they turn up early in the game, so you can make a decision then to stockpile a specific resource
- Remove the "rune" fees - free troves aren't good
- Give some hint about what type of loot is going to be in there (maybe even a choice of three random types of trove: e.g. "wands, jewellery, or weapons?")
- Adjust the prices a little (and also make the loot a bit worse) so it's not such a huge gamble

Hmm ... I don't know, could just go with dpeg's comments in an old thread and remove them altogether

[cerebovssquire]

I find myself getting runes earlier or battling Geryon earlier (I especially like the latter because it is quite a cool fight then) if troves ask for runes. I don't see much of a problem here as long as I'm not alone. Also, slimy rune vaults are a way for Jiyva followers to actually find some loot.

[Kate]

The rune fees work pretty well in that they encourage you to go for some of the harder runes earlier - if you leave it until late, then chances are the contents of the trove won't be much of a help any more. So even if they're sort of "free", they still change how you play in an good way.

The consumable entry fees definitely work better than the dragon armour/demon weapon fees though - although those can still effectively have a decent cost in consumables if their enchantment requirements are high enough.

[mumra]

I find myself getting runes earlier or battling Geryon earlier (I especially like the latter because it is quite a cool fight then) if troves ask for runes. I don't see much of a problem here as long as I'm not alone. Also, slimy rune vaults are a way for Jiyva followers to actually find some loot.

I didn't really think about this - I guess it just hasn't turned out like that in any of my games.

But, if the aim is to encourage early rune acquisition, well there are already plans underway for that (which was already in mind when I suggested removing the rune fees from troves). Basically, it needs to be encouraged in a more broad sense than the occasional chance of a trove, and if we have windowed rune vaults there's not much point also having rune troves.

Jiyva followers -- well they deserve what they get

[galehar]

But, if the aim is to encourage early rune acquisition, well there are already plans underway for that (which was already in mind when I suggested removing the rune fees from troves). Basically, it needs to be encouraged in a more broad sense than the occasional chance of a trove, and if we have windowed rune vaults there's not much point also having rune troves.

We're trying to encourage going for early runes, more reasons are better. We're not going to settle for one reason and remove the others, that wouldn't make much sense.
Also, the treasure vaults in the Lair branches would be guaranteed, troves aren't.

[mageykun]

guaranteed treasure vaults in the Lair branches

Please tell me you're not planning on making these shatter / corruption proof? =D

[smock]

Looking for sage, focus, and experience is incredibly wasteful.

I look for these cards in plain decks only when there scrolls of identify would otherwise sit around unused. Might it be better hold them in case a trove requests them?

[Blade]

it would be better to hold them for things like drawing legendary decks out, identifying randart jewellery, etc., etc., etc. It's really hard to have more id scrolls than you can ever use, so it's not a good idea to use them on trivial things.

[XuaXua]

- Give some hint about what type of loot is going to be in there (maybe even a choice of three random types of trove: e.g. "wands, jewellery, or weapons?")

I always thought that the contents reflected the entry cost.

I like the idea of smaller (4 item) troves at varying branches requiring a specific rune for entry. Either that, or inherent rune abilities.