Sky Beasts


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Pandemonium Purger

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Post Sunday, 11th March 2012, 16:19

Sky Beasts

I was reading the thread in Crazy Yiuf's corner and started typing a reply, but realized it belonged as a new thread.

I think sky beasts were a great addition to the game when looking at how crawl introduces its mechanics to new players. Before this addition, a player's first encounter with an invisible character would be an orc wizard or ogre mage, which does not necessarily teach the player how to deal with invisibility. Much worse, they are often surrounded by plain companions (orcs, ogres) who cannot go invisible and may distract the player from noticing that the purple O of the bunch just disappeared. With sky beasts, you learn they are going to become visible relatively soon, and that you can rely on positioning to try to hit them when they become invisible again. I think this mechanic teaches a new player what invisibility means - harder to hit, attacking based on patterns and not guessing - and helps when the eventual unseen horror comes out swinging.

There are a lot of chances to use this mechanic introduction style for other specific monster types or uniques. Grinder draws a lot of complaints for having full-effect paralysis. It looks like the devs aren't about to change paralysis any time soon, so why not use Grinder as a stepping stone for players to understand and develop a healthy fear of paralysis? Give grinder a turn restricted paralyze, and leave giant eyes how they are.

Anti-magic, as far as I know, has no place or introduction in the early game. I sometimes think that this brand spawning on monster's weapons is a bit silly, and that against players it would be better to ease in the mechanic with a few monsters capable of stealing very small amounts of mana by ranged or melee.

Rotting should belong in the early game, and I think necrophages should have a higher chance of causing rotting but it should be reduced to a maximum of one hit point lost. It should function like glow, where the negative effect does not necessarily happen instantly, but the rotting is reduced (removed) the moment the hit point is lost. When a potion of curing is used, a message should state that a rotted hit point has been cured.

Crazy Yiuf feels like he's introducing the chaos brand to players, but the lesson never unfolds into a more pervasive threat from chaos effects. I've thought for some time now that there should be a spider's nest-like-portal vault of chaos effects. Maybe a small area with abyss-like terrain, but under the control of Xom the Curator? The Library of Xom?

Corrosion is probably alright as it is. Same with poison, cold, confusion and teleportation. I'm not sure how negative energy could be introduced to a player.

What mechanics do you think Crawl could do a better job at presenting to the player? I hear the abyss mentioned a lot on these forums. Scaling the abyss to the players level may work, but it also might give them false impressions of the abyss later in the game. The suggestions I'm putting forward aren't intended to give the player a misunderstanding of how these mechanics ultimately play out, but to teach the newer player how to deal with these threats and to spice up the early game with more dangerous but temporary effects.
seattle washington. friends for life. mods hate on me and devs ignore my posts. creater of exoelfs and dc:pt
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Eringya's Employee

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Post Sunday, 11th March 2012, 20:40

Re: Sky Beasts

twelwe wrote:I'm not sure how negative energy could be introduced to a player.

  Code:
68 TehDruid the Cudgeler (level 1, 15/19 HPs)
             Began as an Ogre Assassin on Mar 9, 2012.
             Was drained of all life
             ... on Level 1 of the Dungeon.
             The game lasted 00:00:36 (296 turns).
MuCK;
  Code:
612 | D:1      | Xom revived you
614 | D:1      | Xom revived you
614 | D:1      | Slain by a gnoll

Halls Hopper

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Post Monday, 26th March 2012, 03:29

Re: Sky Beasts

I think eyes of draining do a pretty good job of introducing MP draining effects. They have a high capacity to steal MP, but even my squishy DEFEs can take one on in melee if there isn't something else complicating the situation. If memory serves I typically encounter them a bit before the lair.

As for paralysis I think the giant eyes do a decent job on introducing them. I think Grinder should stay as he is, and act as what Sigmund is to invisibility to paralysis. I don't think it's absolutely vital to be able to introduce the mechanics in such a way that the new player makes it out alive; these lessons generally only have to be taught once, and crawl isn't supposed to be easy.

I do think Tormenting needs to be introduced better though, if it was present in a weaker form in the mid-early game, then we might not all lose our first character to step foot in the tomb. Perhaps this could be done by introducing a new tier 4 or 5 demon that had a weaker symbol of torment in it's arsenal, but was weak enough to be dispatched before it wreaks too much havoc on your life bar.
Wins: DEFE (15), HOPr (4), DsDK (3), MfGl (3), TeCj (7), HaFi (15)

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 26th March 2012, 06:10

Re: Sky Beasts

That Other Guy wrote:I do think Tormenting needs to be introduced better though, if it was present in a weaker form in the mid-early game, then we might not all lose our first character to step foot in the tomb. Perhaps this could be done by introducing a new tier 4 or 5 demon that had a weaker symbol of torment in it's arsenal, but was weak enough to be dispatched before it wreaks too much havoc on your life bar.


That's what Menkaure is for. You freak out when he knocks off half your life bar in one round, but he's got nothing to follow up with and he has a glass jaw.

Slime Squisher

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Post Monday, 26th March 2012, 07:24

Re: Sky Beasts

I like Menkaure. He did freak me out the first time he tormented me, but I realized the wands of flame drop him pretty quick.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 26th March 2012, 15:06

Re: Sky Beasts

I don't think 25 damage melee is "nothing" at the stage of the game when Menkaure spawns.
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Pandemonium Purger

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Post Monday, 26th March 2012, 18:54

Re: Sky Beasts

I actually think Menkaure plays very little role in introducing torment. If you get tormented by him, the length of time that passes before you get tormented again will make someone forget that the spell Fiends are using to halve your life is the same as the mummy on D:4. Menkaure is still a good unique, just not what I consider educational in regards to torment.

The mid game could stand the addition of a few rare tormenting creatures, how about Torment Spores? Or Hellfire Spores?
seattle washington. friends for life. mods hate on me and devs ignore my posts. creater of exoelfs and dc:pt

Vestibule Violator

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Post Monday, 26th March 2012, 20:20

Re: Sky Beasts

twelwe wrote:I actually think Menkaure plays very little role in introducing torment. If you get tormented by him, the length of time that passes before you get tormented again will make someone forget that the spell Fiends are using to halve your life is the same as the mummy on D:4. Menkaure is still a good unique, just not what I consider educational in regards to torment.

The mid game could stand the addition of a few rare tormenting creatures, how about Torment Spores? Or Hellfire Spores?

Take away Tormentor's other attack and make them only able to torment. Make them 4s instead to compensate. This makes them not dangerous by themselves and only dangerous when other creatures get spawned. This is generally the case anyway as they're pretty much pushovers by themselves, but I'm sure that someone has died to one directly.

Halls Hopper

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Post Tuesday, 27th March 2012, 00:13

Re: Sky Beasts

twelwe wrote:I actually think Menkaure plays very little role in introducing torment. If you get tormented by him, the length of time that passes before you get tormented again will make someone forget that the spell Fiends are using to halve your life is the same as the mummy on D:4. Menkaure is still a good unique, just not what I consider educational in regards to torment.

The mid game could stand the addition of a few rare tormenting creatures, how about Torment Spores? Or Hellfire Spores?


I like the idea of a tormenting spore. I'm not sure how it would make sense thematically, but I really think spores are a fun aspect of the game, and a tactical challenge when one shoot around the corner while you're in the middle of a fight.
Wins: DEFE (15), HOPr (4), DsDK (3), MfGl (3), TeCj (7), HaFi (15)

Crypt Cleanser

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Post Tuesday, 27th March 2012, 00:56

Re: Sky Beasts

An idea that's been floating around in my head is a demon of suffering. This demon is weak, but does a small amount of constant torment damage every turn you can see it. Something like (8- (rN * 2))%. So not very threatening on its own, but could get very annoying if you can't get to it to kill it. It's also a bit more "fair" than hoping a monster doesn't use torment this turn.
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Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Tuesday, 27th March 2012, 01:25

Re: Sky Beasts

twelwe wrote:The mid game could stand the addition of a few rare tormenting creatures, how about Torment Spores? Or Hellfire Spores?

I think torment spores make more sense than hellfire spores. Hellfire spores make it sound like they use hellfire.
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