How to make zombies more interesting?

[ryak]

Generally in culture, zombies fall into two categories: slow shambling or fast moving super human zombies. Maybe crawl zombies should be reflavored as the latter and actually made faster than the original monster instead of slower. That alone would make them more interesting.

[mattlistener]

What about replacing zombies/skeletons standard placement on level creation with something similar (but not equal) to Zonguldrok wizlab mechanics - mindless undead start buried and roll a chance to rise and fight you every turn you are in line of sight of their resting place. All non-vault areas of crypt start completely deserted (well, apparently deserted) apart from some high-level undead (which upon noticing you would call on all still buried undead in a certain radius to rise and walk towards you). Heck, make skeletal warriors a crypt-only monster and bury them too, that'd make them more interesting than Yet Another Pack Monster You Always Fight In Corridors.

Nice. The chance to rise scales with the number of hidden undead in LOS. And when one rise, they all rise at the same time.
This is a nice way to give them "strength by number". I don't see them as wandering the dungeon in bands like orcs or yaktaurs.

I really like this idea too. It gives them a way of potentially getting into melee without being fast, and potentially surrounding the player which no mechanic I can think of other than vaults tries to do. Being spread out = less vulnerable to AOE spells than pack monsters.

One thing you might want to discourage would be an explore strategy of "take two steps, wait 1000, repeat" that skims off buried undead in small numbers. Perhaps by having a minimum # to rise together, eg 4? And then increase density of buried undead so the desired number come out on the average explore. Orphans would still provide fodder for higher-level undead to call on later.

Whatever is done with Crypt, I hope it is enhancements that bring it up to the threshold of "this should be kept as a branch", rather than being cut because in its current state it's not <something> enough.

[mumra]

The classic horror zombie scenario is: They're slow moving, one on it's own isn't a problem. But they have this habit of suddenly surrounding you with a horde and you're screwed ...

So I think these last ideas capture that. Rather than having it tied to specific tiles, it could be a rare level-wide random event (that possibly only occurs under tension). Wherever you are at that time, zombies rise all around you.

I had an idea ages ago for a set of serial vaults with a zombie graveyard theme - someone actually created some serial graveyard vaults more recently, but sadly no zombies

[Pleont]

One thing that would make the crypt a lot more exciting would be to change all of the regular stairways into trapdoors. One of the major weaknesses of the zombies, besides their slow movement speed, is that they can't go up and down stairs. This would make things much more dangerous for spellcasters in that they can't easily stair-dance whenever their MP runs out, and increase the tension in situations like going down to the next floor with a silent spectre or a curse skull nearby. Without a scroll of magic mapping or similar, the player has no idea where the nearest escape is located, and so they're forced to consider their situation and resources, especially since the crypt is capable of spawning high level uniques like Boris and Mennas. Even if they do find a trapdoor back up, there's no guarantee that it will lead to an already explored and safe area, either.

[Blade]

Not going up and down stairs isn't necessarily a weakness; it means that if there is a pack, there is no separating them off upstairs and fighting one at a time. Obviously it would be a problem if -no- monsters could follow up/down stairs, but I think there is a nice balance right now.

[dk]

...
I had an idea ages ago for a set of serial vaults with a zombie graveyard theme - someone actually created some serial graveyard vaults more recently, but sadly no zombies

Actually, it was me who created the undead serial vaults, and there are zombies in the monster list. Feel free to improve the monsterlist of those vaults, I kinda suck at finding the right monsters for vaults (I'm more interessted in Lua-scripting).

[mumra]

...
I had an idea ages ago for a set of serial vaults with a zombie graveyard theme - someone actually created some serial graveyard vaults more recently, but sadly no zombies

Actually, it was me who created the undead serial vaults, and there are zombies in the monster list. Feel free to improve the monsterlist of those vaults, I kinda suck at finding the right monsters for vaults (I'm more interessted in Lua-scripting).

Sorry, didn't phrase myself right - I meant no zombies rising up out of the ground (which would be Lua of course...)

[dk]

...
I had an idea ages ago for a set of serial vaults with a zombie graveyard theme - someone actually created some serial graveyard vaults more recently, but sadly no zombies

Actually, it was me who created the undead serial vaults, and there are zombies in the monster list. Feel free to improve the monsterlist of those vaults, I kinda suck at finding the right monsters for vaults (I'm more interessted in Lua-scripting).

Sorry, didn't phrase myself right - I meant no zombies rising up out of the ground (which would be Lua of course...)

Hmm, I think it would be cool to have those rising up out of the ground in serial vaults, since it would have a nice impact on the entire dungeon floor. The question is: Should serial vaults change a dungeon floor this much? Maybe yes

Maybe I have some time to alter the undead serial vaults this weekend...

[Pleont]

Not going up and down stairs isn't necessarily a weakness; it means that if there is a pack, there is no separating them off upstairs and fighting one at a time. Obviously it would be a problem if -no- monsters could follow up/down stairs, but I think there is a nice balance right now.

It is a weakness because zombies and skeletons do not regenerate health. Depending on the spell set, I also consider this a handicap for player ghosts, who do regenerate health.

For a spellcaster with low AC, EV, and shields, it's simple enough for them to go down the stairs and fire off their spells, and run back up the stairs to heal if the heavy bruiser zombies manage to deliver enough damaging blows. Since they do not regenerate health, the situation merely devolves into a battle of attrition. If a monster capable of using the stairs joins the zombies, the zombies standing around the player makes it easier to separate these monsters one at a time when the player drags them up the stairs.

When was the last time you died solely from a pack of zombies when you have access to a stairway? Slow moving monsters generally contribute to my deaths only when I try to kite them on levels I haven't explored yet without immediate access to an escape.

The only times crypt ever caused me to stop and consider my situation carefully was when something trampled me off the stairs, and when I fell down a pitfall shaft. The former just requires me to pay attention so I can quickly kill the monsters capable of trampling before they reach me (or just leave and use a different set of stairs), and the latter just requires that I have flight or levitation active at all times.

Actually, another thing that would make crypt scarier would be if there was a ghost that can mesmorise the player. Probably give it to the flying skulls to make their existence more worthwhile and terrifying.

[ClawlessVictory]

What if zombies were almost immune to physical damage, or only susceptible to fire?

[Blade]

Then that would be tedious and frustrating and zombies would instantly rocket to the top of my "enemies that shouldn't be in the game" list.

[Robsoie]

Just my opinion on a raw differentiation (no gimmicks) between living, zombies and skeletons for a same monster

Quickness: skeletons > living > zombies
Hardness: zombies > living > skeletons
Damage: living > zombies = skeletons ?

If think it is very good.
Simple but efficient at giving each version of a creature a specificity and purpose.

[Bim]

I love the rising mechanic, and think it would make zombies a completely different threat, but my main thought here is that in films zombies are A LOT tougher than people. As in, they feel no pain and only head decapitation kills them.
Now as Blade said, I'm not a fan of 'monsters that can only be killed one way' but what if, in a reverse to hydras, they could only be killed by a chopping/long weapon. So clubs and daggers didn't manage to hurt them, and they had a hugely increased HP on top of that.

This would make them more dangerous to fast creatures that generally use daggers/shorts and give a nice reversal over the hydra mechanic. Also, with the rising mechanic and an 'instinct' (as in, they always know where you were) it would stop hit and runs and also make them more of a challenge without just making them a heavy hitter.

[Bim]

Ouch, acidy.

I think mainly what I'm getting at (as are others) is the relentless feeling a zombie horde is supposed to conjure up, and ways to put that into a turn based game. Everyone loves killing zombies, but it can't be a case of just hacking away at a non-regen meat bag. Possibly removing all zombie xp would help, they would then become a threat like summons, where they are more like a trap than an actual monster to kill for xp to grind.

[smock]

Why are there no Kiku-worshipping opponents? Summoning corpses and then animating them would be a good threat for a unique or, eg, a type of deep dwarf.

Perhaps the zombie and skeleton spawn rate in the dungeon could be greatly lowered until they are made interesting.

[nicolae]

Why are there no Kiku-worshipping opponents? Summoning corpses and then animating them would be a good threat for a unique or, eg, a type of deep dwarf.

Nobody got around to making any, I guess. There's a monster religion proposal here, maybe with more work things will happen.

[Thurman]

Zombies in fiction are usually depicted as attacking en masse, so perhaps Crawl zombies could be restricted to special vaults which would confront the player with a huge army of them - like the room of orcs or bees but on an even larger scale and harder to just run from.

There is already a common vault that is basically a ton of zombies in one room, with a few vampires and lesser undead thrown in. It is really tedious, and between vampire summon and all the pointless zombies, it's one of the only times that I just hold down tab. The idea of zombies somehow being stronger when in a large group has some potential, I think, but just "let's have a ton of them" is not the best way to achieve that.

Could this not be resolved by extending their reach. Let's not think of normal battle formation here because mindless zombies don't think, they react. So think of it as two zombies holding the same ground as one warrior would. By extending the reach of the zombie, but only allowing the the zombie to use such reach when another zombie is in front of it. This would simulate a rush of the zombie hoard and would increase the damage that such a hoard would normally inflict as in Sci-Fi features.

[Bim]

I think that's exactly the sort of thing I'd like to see Thurman, but I imagine it would be difficult to explain to the unspoiled player. Perhaps they could go past/through the player to attack from a free angle with something like 'the zombies surround you!'. This might make it easier to see that you were being swarmed and would also make a few zombies a more potent threat?

[dpeg]

FWIW, I think Roderic's stone-paper-scissors approach is spot on. Moreover, we don't want to stop at plain numbers (speed, damage, health), so additional perks are welcome. Since zombies would be slower than normal speed, they'll be in need of a perk foremost. I suggest that whenever there's a zombie nearby, the following can happen:
a) hands come up from the ground, holding you by your ankles (a bit like a web or net trap)
b) sometimes, a full zombie emerges, of a type related to the zombie(s) chasing you

a) is good for slowing down the player. b) is good for getting something in the way. Needless to say, the bonus zombies don't provide any xp.

[Infinitum]

Methinks there's no need to complicate the original premise of the Zombies themselves (them being low-threat shuffling versions of other monster). I do like the rise from the ground suggestion earlier though (as long as it scripted so that all Zombies raise simultaneously, and with the player somewhere in the middle of the group to prevent the aforementioned optimum play tedium).

[smock]

Recycling the trapdoor spider code for zombies would let zombies/skeletons emerge from the ground. If they many emerged all at once near a player then they might be real threat.

[nagdon]

While the current zombies are usually weaker, they have adventages over the base mosters in resistances: they resist ice, poison and negative energy meaning that the following strategies/attacks don't work against them:
* Mephitic Cloud, common Evaporate attacks (confusion, poison)
* Ensocorelled Hibernation
* all Poison spells are useless except Summon Scorpions, Spider Form (does Poison Arrow damage them?)
* Freeze, Refrigeration, lots of other Ice spells, although Throw Icicle is partially irresistible and is in the IE starting book
* Pain, Vampiric Draining, Bolt of Draining, although necromancers have Dispel Undead
* needle usage -- curare, kiting with poisoned needles etc.
* wands of draining/cold
* weapons of freezing, venom
* Naga poison spit, some draconian breath weapons

So while they are unintersting for lots of characters, if they are made much stronger, a swarm of zombies can easily become too dangerous for a Venom Mage.

[njvack]

(does Poison Arrow damage them?)

Yes, but not particularly efficiently.

[Blade]

Does enough that you don't need to worry about another method, though.

[njvack]

Almost always, yeah -- the exception I can think of was a kraken zombie in cocytus -- it might have had enough HP to tank 50MP of poison arrow. I could imagine a big ol' mass of high-HP zombies presenting a problem for a VM if not for the old standby of "get away from the threatening monsters."

[Midpoint]

One thing I like about the "rise from the ground" mechanic: it can really neuter stealth, maybe even make it backfire. Instead of slowly crawling forward and pulling asleep enemies, you suddenly find yourself in the middle of them? If Pr(a zombie rises) is related to stealth, you could be MORE likely to find yourself in the midst of a pack with high levels of the skill. Also, very little sleep-stabbing to be done... You could even find yourself wandering lonely corridors until boom... zombies everywhere.

Between alarm traps, screaming flying skulls, etc. there should be some difficult to avoid methods for waking the masses (maybe LOS of each risen zombie increases the probability that other zombies rise; with a big enough chain of nearby zombies, it could wake the entire level). Probably best if awake zombies who can see you have a shout-like ability that draws more zombies to your location (i.e., you shouldn't be able to defeat zombies just through LOS tricks to single them out).

Same lines, to removing stab-ability of sleeping/dormant zombies, should use the trapdoor mechanic to re-hide them.

[Deimos]

Something that would be neat when I thought about "they attack normal creatures and turn them into zombies" suggestion that someone made a page back, was if they had a pack mentality. If one caught eye of you, suddenly every zombie on the level would charge at you.

I'm also liking the Rock, Paper, Scissors idea and "from the floor" thing, but I think serious consideration should be made of entire walls being able to collapse into a zombie/skeleton, as was suggested. It seems it would add a lot to have even the walls be deadly. Particularly in Crypt.

[galbolle]

Zombies could be to XPs what jellies are to items: zombie kills grant no or very few xps. Zombies wander in pack, and attack the nearest (living?) monster, be it the player, hostile, neutral, or ally. Monsters they kill become zombies. This means you have to race them for the kills if you want the xps, and also if you want to avoid a whole level's worth of monsters becoming one pack that's after you. Unique zombies may or may not become ghouls and keep their spells, according to the rng's/devteam's evilness.

[wesleyshaver]

Here's an idea riffing on the "rise from the ground" idea:

1. When a zombie is aware of you in LOS it does not move forward to attack. Instead it stays put and starts to groan.

2. Every time a zombie groans (once per turn?) another zombie erupts from the floor nearby and also stays put and starts to groan.

3. If the player becomes adjacent to a zombie they all stop groaning and rush to attack.

This means that rather than pulling monsters into corridors like normal, every time a player sees a zombie he should rush to attack so the zombies stop groaning and the player doesn't end up facing a horde.

This idea could probably use some work but some version of it might be fun.

[Midpoint]

Groan mechanic sounds interesting, but it going to need a little work. Here are the problems I see:
XP of groaning zombies is going to have to be balanced. We don't want it to be optimal to wait for a ton of zombies to emerge before engaging. You may have to treat them like ballistomycetes, but this could end up really tedious in lvls with lots of zombies, especially crypt. You could balance it for the number of erupted zombies, but that's just going to introduce an "optimal zombie pack" issue. Reusing ballistomycetes code might work if you can treat different packs as a separate swarm for xp purposes, but it sounds like a pain to code.

Still, I like the idea of forcing a change in player strategy. Problem is this seems like a melee focused adjustment. A ranged attacker or spellcaster is just going to run the other way, or blast the groaning zombies at a distance with no fear of engagement. You could make new zombies emerge between the current zombie and the player instead. Or maybe some sort of encircling pattern, prevent escape, close in on the player. May end up playing like a hive mind easy curse skull (have to kill all the zombies, fast enough to stop the swarm spawning). Which could itself be tedious. Or interesting. I don't really have a feel for it.

Of course, we could have different types of zombies so at least the engagements in crypt would vary a little more. (maybe this is redundant with the zombie/skeleton differentiation). Groaning zombies in someplaces, hands from the ground/emerging zombies elsewhere, fast moving skeletons elsewhere. This would probably go hand in hand with more crypt specific vaults to make it closer to the level of interest of crypt 5 (which is awesome).

[wesleyshaver]

Good points Midpoint but notice in the scenario I describe unless the ranged character can blast the zombie in 1 turn he will soon be facing an exponential number of zombies until he gets adjacent to one. So if he fails to kill 1 zombie there will be two on screen next turn. If he again fails to kill one again there will be four, then eight, etc. It becomes a gamble as to whether he can blast the zombies as you say or end up in a far worse position than if he just bee-lined to the nearest zombie to prevent all the groaning.

The newly risen zombies shouldn't give XP most likely. We don't want these guys farmed.

We shouldn't see levels taken over by zombies because they only groan when the player is in LOS.

[molari]

Zombie 'groans' could attract all other zombies on the level (rather than other enemies within hearing range like other monster 'shouts/roars/etc.')
giving the potential for being swarmed, especially in crypt levels.

Having zombies leave a shortlived tile of miasma behind when they die would certainly make them more interesting tactically.

[KoboldLord]

By the time a typical character is clearing Vaults and is therefore able to access Crypt for the first time, any number of zombies is an insufficient number to provide challenge. At least without complicating factors provided by other monsters, or a tiny handful of rare powerhouses like quicksilver dragon zombies. Making the zombie mob in Crypt even more of a tedious and obnoxious tab-fest would seem to be moving in the wrong direction. In the worst-case scenario, you simply can't keep up with the spawns so you allow a protective layer of rat zombies to form around you while you carefully dig through the unbroken wall of flesh ahead of you, using smite-targeted attacks against any uniques that happen to spawn because they can't get past all the zombies either.

[wesleyshaver]

Good point KoboldLord, maybe the zombies can get a frenzy bonus based upon the number of zombies nearby? There has to be a way to make these guys interesting and challenging. Help us out by offering some suggestions.

[TwilightPhoenix]

Or just stop spawning trash zombies in Crypt.

[KoboldLord]

Good point KoboldLord, maybe the zombies can get a frenzy bonus based upon the number of zombies nearby? There has to be a way to make these guys interesting and challenging. Help us out by offering some suggestions.

Two reasons why I didn't try to add anything to your brainstorming. Both are important.

#1: Nothing you could possibly do to zombies will make them interesting in Crypt. Crypt comes really late in the game, after the point where you should be armed to the teeth and more than capable of handling melee brutes. In the off-chance something is made up to make zombie mobs dangerous to high-level characters, then Crypt can simply be put off until it is trivial because there's really not much of particular interest inside. Making zombies so numerous or buff that they're simply not worth the real-time spent on them just means players skip Crypt.

#2: Zombies are already interesting in the early Dungeon, where they spawn several levels more shallowly than the type of monster they're based on. Early zombies complicate the battlefield against more conventional opponents, since their consider hit points and damage output means you don't want to move within their reach if you can reasonably avoid it. Some zombies can even pose a significant to dire threat on their own, for instance wyvern zombies. Later in the game, zombies make fairly functional summons for casters designed to make use of them. Gimmicks like zombie cascades would impair these useful functions currently performed by zombies.

I don't see any good reason to trash the good parts of the game trying to kludge a location that doesn't work as well. A branch themed around slow, unsupported melee brutes that have no abilities and can't even heal is not a good one to put right at the end of the game.

[Midpoint]

I don't see any good reason to trash the good parts of the game trying to kludge a location that doesn't work as well. A branch themed around slow, unsupported melee brutes that have no abilities and can't even heal is not a good one to put right at the end of the game.

I think this is why some of the discussion has veered from "what can we do for zombies" to "what would work for crypt?"

If it's agreed that zombies serve a decent early game purpose, and a later game purpose with enemy spellcasters who animate, then fine. (I think the speed/robustness balance on skeletons vs zombies is worth a shot though, although it might unbalance animate skeleton early on by giving access to a cheap faster-than-average ally for 1 MP.)

The crypt problems seem to be that the enemy set and the terrain don't present enough tactical challenges (hence, all the suggested zombie types in the thread). Vault/mini-vault designs can help with the tactics, and may be a starting place to introduce some additional crypt-only undead monsters. Right now some special vampires, skeletal warriors, curse skulls, curse toes and higher-than-usual numbers of necromancers seem to be what we've got (i'm probably missing some others). And zombies to fill in the rest. If we have more "other interesting undead" then there won't be as many standard zombies. My hope was that many of these "interesting undead" would replace bog-standard zombies in crypt only.

And frankly, I'm not sure what can be done for the "people will avoid it if it's hard until they are high enough level for it to be easy" problem. Same thing happens already with Orc, Elf, and plenty of other areas. I guess that's the risk of branches in crawl. You pick your own level of risk/reward balance, until something surprises you. I suppose one alternative (batted around here and elsewhere) is to use the crypt_5 maps as late game portals (if so, I'd really like a guaranteed portal, I'm quite happy with the crypt endings), and having random D levels spawn as undead-only (you smell dust and rot as you walk down the staircase), reuse the crypt tileset, and use zombies from a lower level depth to keep the challenge up.

Personally, I'd rather take a stab at redesign first. At least we can get some extra monsters/vaults out of that process. Which I should probably try doing instead of talking about

[TwilightPhoenix]

For Crypt, I still think it could be enhanced a bit already by simply stopping the spawning of trash zombies, leaving only the tougher ones, and having Crypt zombies more dangerous, such as the rising from the ground mechanic or making them all the "sprinter" type zombie as opposed to the "shambler", so Crypt zombies would actually be faster than their living counterparts. That's not all Crypt needs, of course, but it'd help.

[Bim]

I know its a one off example, but whilst playing trunk I just killed a load of ogres (about 10 with elrocha), and then moved forward and was greeted by some skeleton warriors. I then retreated and was met by a huge amount of resurrected ogres and it was a fantastic crawl moment, one where you mash buttons faster and harder for no real reason and start screaming for things to slow down so that you can just take a second to think.

But anyway, it was probably the first zombie horde I've ever met, and it was fantastic. +1000000 to a zombie horde, and I don't care how you do it.

[hxy]

Skeletal warriors can cast animate dead, so don't lead them near corpses.

[Galefury]

Skeletal warriors can cast animate dead, so don't lead them near corpses.

Actually, zombies tend to be free exp and piety, so: skeletal warriors can cast animate dead, so lead them near corpses.

It's tedious though, and skeletal warriors are not that common in corpse-rich areas, so this tends to not be worth it (you can impscum instead, which is equally tedious, which is why it is not generally done).

[xopods]

In Brogue, zombies are surrounded by a cloud of noxious fumes that essentially slows you (by making you lose random turns vomiting). So they could have something like that, being surrounded in their adjacent tiles by Mephitic Cloud or even miasma. It'd make them a big threat for melee characters, anyway.

I like the idea of zombies emerging from the floor. The grabbing hands, not so much.

You could remove zombies from spawning as normal monsters, and instead make them more like pressure plate traps; when you step on a zombie spawn point, they erupt from the ground on all sides, appearing at random points in a 3-tile radius around you. This would make them a serious threat to anyone without Blink.

[evilmike]

Brogue style zombies wouldn't really work in crawl anyway. In that game zombies are rare, single enemies, which rely heavily on the game's "gas" system (and how gas is flammable). These concepts just do not not exist in Crawl and possibly wouldn't translate well.

[danharaj]

Aside from heavy hitting zombies, of which the alligator snapping turtle zombie is the closest to being a real threat, zombies really only do two things: occupy squares and block line of effect. Pairing zombie hordes with monsters that can take advantage of this seems like the most economical way to spice them up. Necromancers are kind of like that, except they are way too eager to run in front of their minions to get into melee range and splat themselves. They probably shouldn't do that so readily.

Towards that, I don't think zombies should spawn randomly by themselves. I think they should be reserved for vaults, bands, and occasional level flavor. In that vein, I think crypt needs to use more premade content. It's hard to make something like zombies interesting with random content. Not all undead vaults currently in the game are good, though. An example of a terrible vault that should be removed is the stupid undead-in-a-box vault (honestly get rid of all those kinds of vaults please). I think there are a few crypt endings that are fun and interesting, and undead portal vaults can be good too. For example, there's the tomb portal where you enter inside a ring of zombies, and it spawns early enough where being completely surrounded like that is a bit threatening. The zombies can actually hurt you and the lack of any positional advantage is deadly for many kinds of early characters.

Early game, a beefy zombie like a zombie hill giant can be dangerous but late game there is virtually no threat from zombies except the fact that they take up space. Any late game undead areas need to use zombies as positional tools instead of melee threats ('cause they ain't melee threats at that point).