How about a demonic axe?

[danr]

Axes have the smallest number of available choices, except for short blades, but for short blades it makes sense because of the size range restriction.

So I thought - why not have a Demon Axe? There's a "demonic" option for polearms, maces&flails, and for long blades.

It would be something like a war or broad axe, but a bit faster. The "speed" could come from the fact that this axe has a head at each end, sort of like a lajatang.

[szanth]

This might not be relevant enough, but it reminds me to raise that point that I think there should be more (and more attractive, power-wise) two-handers out there. As it stands the ability to wield even a buckler is such a great benefit, and the one-handers can be so powerful, that having a two-hander seems like a handicap, no pun intended. So my suggestion is that this theoretical new axe with two heads be a two-hander, and be powerful enough to warrant not using a shield.

[MrMisterMonkey]

Short blades are all about the stabbing and being both common and fast; if you're not stabbing or using slaying or an additive brand, you should probably choose a different weapon type. If anything, I think short blades are too big: only daggers (best stabbing), quick blades (quick) and sabres (best base damage) differentiate themselves well; knives are useless and short swords are purely an intermediary form between daggers and sabres.
As for strong axes, there's already the executioner's axe.
The current choice in axes is that by choosing the school you probably want to go 2-hander; broad axes aren't very good.
Assuming axes need more differentiation from other schools (yes), you should probably focus on special moves.
Assuming axes need more differentiation amongst themselves (perhaps), I don't really know what to say. If you just mean adding more axes without consideration of adding anything unique, forget about it. If you mean mimicking other weapon schools by sharing some of their traits, forget about it. If you mean giving axe users more interesting choices, note that adding special moves would give broad axes a slight bit of appeal due to having the axe special move and being usable with shields.
I think the choice to use axes should be about both whatever special things axes get and the strong bias towards using 2-handers; diluting this with extra in-school options is probably bad.

[danr]

Um, my idea was just that it would be cool to have a demonic axe or "hell axe". I like the other demonic weapons, and the racial benefit is pretty decent (+0,+2), I just wish Demonspawn had the option of getting that benefit with axes, and the demon weapons are interesting choices for other species as well.

I'm not wanting to get into special moves or general discussions of the overall flavours of whole classes of weapons. However, I DON'T think it would be bad if there were a better one-handed axe option. If the broad axe is not that great, maybe the broad axe should be made a bit faster and relabeled as a "demon axe". However, I have been very happy with broad axes.

Most schools also have a weapon type that is pretty rare but "unusually effective", that are faster or more accurate than other weapons with similar base damage - e.g. the katana, demon blade, the quick blade, the lajatang, the evening star, demon whip, demon trident.

I feel like axes could use that "special" type as well. It would be rare, but it would be a joyous occasion when your axe-wielding chopper finds it.

[Grimm]

Instead of going with another demon weapon, why not have a weird rare weapon drawn from history, like the latajang? I propose the labrys. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labrys

[MrMisterMonkey]

1) if there is no demonic axe, it makes the axes/noaxes more important when playing demonspawn; adding one dilutes the school in that regard

2) if you want 1/1.5-handed options go maces and flails, polearms, or long blades; axes' 2-hander bias makes them unique.

3) and you need to make axes the same as them? Axes' rare weapon is the executioner's axe, which is particularly hard-hitting.

4) see above

[danr]

Instead of going with another demon weapon, why not have a weird rare weapon drawn from history, like the latajang? I propose the labrys. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labrys

Interesting. It sort of looks like a short-handled battle axe.

I like that it seems to have roots in the Minoan civilization and is etymologically related to "labyrinths". The minotaur in the labyrinth could wield one of these.

I don't spend too much time thinking about how interesting it is that axes have a bias toward two-handedness. I certainly don't find it as interesting as finding a katana.

The executioner's axe is a really boring weapon, I don't know why it's rare. It's just bigger, heavier, slower. It's not a special "value" like a katana because you have to pay for the extra damage with extra delay and poorer accuracy.

A giant club is easy to find, has the same accuracy and damage as the Ex Axe, but is three points faster. A triple sword does one less damage, but in exchange it is two points more accurate and one point faster.

So I don't think Axes would be hurt by having a rare and unusually effective (or demonic) weapon. There are plenty of other factors in picking weapon schools, and remember, this would be a rare weapon.

[danr]

Some other axes from Wikipedia:
Japanese: Ono: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ono_(weapon)
Indian: Parashu: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parashu
Chinese: Dagger-axe: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagger-axe
European: Dane Axe: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viking_axe

The dagge-axe has an interesting description of how it was used:

The use of the weapon involve thrusting the vertical spear head against the enemy's head as a feint. Then the user may cut the foe by pulling the scythe-like horizontal blade backwards. The cutting blade is angled optimally to behead the enemy.

[MrMisterMonkey]

giant clubs require you to be ogre (a large price) or troll (better with UC anyway)

as for axe bias being interesting, it's something you must consider when choosing axes, not getting excited when you find a big axe. While it may not be interesting on its own, removing that distinction just makes it even more like all the other schools (this is boring). Other schools need to distance themselves, too, perhaps with special moves.

as for delay, you do know how to calculate delay and minimum delay, right? at max skill, exec axe, triple sword, and giant club all have the same delay, 7.

[danr]

Okay fine you win.

I still want a cool new axe.

[dtsund]

If dwarves do become small, it'll be a pity if there aren't any good axes they can use. I wouldn't look forward to a future where playing a mountain dwarf means you're destined to use a demon whip.

[jackalKnight]

Maybe if dwarves get their own branch, the dwarven equipment there will help them like how Hive helps Spriggans? It would certainly make MdFi less of a "no-brainer" run class.

As for the demon axe, demon axes have been used so much as a stereotypical weapon that its more of a shock that they DON'T have the option. I wish there was a demon axe, since Long Blades, Whips, and Flails covers most other weapons effectively.

[seth]

You guys arguing against adding new axes, do you actually ever use them? I just ask because I never do, even if I'm playing a berserker.

[Grimm]

I always use axes as an MDFi. It just feels right. Axes of the Dwarves, and so forth.

[seth]

Well I guess in my last game I had a +4, +9 demon whip that not even a good executioner's axe compared to, at least according to danr's chart. Now I don't know if I was using the chart wrong or if the chart is inaccurate, but as far as I could tell the choice was a "no brainer" (especially considering the whip could be used with a buckler)

[jackalKnight]

What's really strange is that you can get an "axe of holy wrath" but NOT a demon axe, which has been a stereotypical demon weapon since before RPGs existed. If its always a no-brainer for Ds to go into some other weapon school to get their racial weapon, the game is actually more predictable (which Crawl's design philosophy is supposedly against), not less. This isn't creating a redundant monster that takes the place of another monster, this is about another viable build.

[Rapigel]

Okay fine you win.

I still want a cool new axe.

Puts me in mind of minmay's thread for new unrandarts. Looking at the current list, there are heaps of long blades, polearms and maces, but only two axes. Why not make your cool new demonic axe an unrandart? I really like how the unrandarts are a mixed blessing (ok, some are just flat out ace, but I like the ones with problems, like Zonguldrok).

So how about a slightly flawed unrandart "demonic" axe? Give it a slightly higher base damage and speed of a broad axe so it will fall into the demonic slot of other weapon types, add a resist (or not), and then add a chance of summoning demons on, say, 10% of hits. Type of demon by some distribution (5/4/3/2/1 = 60%/20%/10%/7%/3%), with a 10% chance of being hostile. On these numbers, the chance of getting a hostile 1 is 0.03%. I'd use something like this - though I'd probably want to learn abjuration.

[danr]

I'm not just talking about an "in-between" weapon. I'm talking about a weapon that would have a demonic racial bonus, and/or be more accurate / faster than the standard tradeoff curve of speed vs. damage would suggest. Like a katana, e.g. It does more damage than weapons of comparable speed / accuracy.

[seth]

What makes you think axes are unviable? Demon whips are better than broad axes, sure, but they're a lot rarer, and a good few species have better axes aptitude than maces aptitude. "Axes with shields are unviable because demon whips with shields are better" makes about as much sense as "Iskenderun's Mystic Blast is unviable because Throw Icicle is better."

are you talking to me? because I never said anything about broad axes--I said demon whips are better than EXECUTIONER's axes. At least according to danr's chart.

[danr]

I don't get how we can speak in absolute terms about a fuzzy concept like "interesting". I think an unusually effective axe would be interesting, it would make axes as a whole more interesting, and there would still be an interesting choice to make between axes and other schools.

Currently, I just don't use axes.

[MrMisterMonkey]

perhaps danr is confusing "interesting" with "universally appealing"

[danr]

I can't write any response that I as a mod wouldn't have to delete, so I'm stepping out of this topic.

[szanth]

Bottom line, as it stands, optimal play suggests that axes are not the best overall weapons. There are weapons of other types that could be considered the best, partially because of the 'demon' foo, and it seems like the fight against axes being upped to their level is that right now, it's more interesting for axes to be generally not as effective.

Which I don't agree with.

Of course I'm with danr here.

[szanth]

Eh, but the game pretty much runs entirely on gambling that you'll find something awesome. The chances are that while you'll be using ol' reliable choppy chop, you'll find an awesome weapon of some other kind, and it might even crosstrain. So by end-game, most characters will have moved on, or avoided axes entirely because of their lack of top-level possibilities.

But they aren't even all that reliable, as has been said, the best axe is still pretty rare. If executioners' axes were made more common, I guess the argument could be made.

[szanth]

But would you rather use a +9/+9 Battleaxe of Pain/Speed/Chopping or a +9/+9 Demon Whip of Pain/Speed/whatever the vorpal for whips are?

It's important. People hold out for a specific weapon, not enchanting others they find on the offchance they find the one they want. It's pretty much guaranteed you'll find a demon whip -somewhere- in the game, held by a Balrug or something, so why would you waste your enchants on a battleaxe?

[MrMisterMonkey]

If axes pale in comparison to maces, buff axes or nerf maces; don't make them the same.

[KoboldLord]

I've done a 15-rune game with a good scimitar, so I don't know what some of you people are talking about when you say you need to hold out for the best weapon. That scimitar killed Asmodeus just fine. It probably would have killed more of the endgame uniques just as easily, if there was any reason to try.

Axes are biased towards being two-handed. If you prefer to use a shield, (and I'll grant that shields are awesome) you might as well stick with a different weapon type, but if you don't plan to use a shield two-handed axes are easy to get and powerful.

[galehar]

oops, that thanks was for minmay, not MisterMonkey. I totally agree. Enchant a broad axe to +4 in mid-game is much more important for survivability than a slight chance of pushing an hypothetical demon whip to +9 for the endgame. And you might end up with an artefact weapon anyway. Don't hoard on resources, use them.