Make the Orcish Mines spawn deeper

[Scalding Steam]

In the current version, Orc can spawn on D:6-D:11 while Lair can spawn on D:8-D:13. This is odd, since Orc is usally as hard as - if not harder than Lair. It's sort of a newbie trap too. So I propose make the minimum spawning depth of Orc deeper - something like D:9-D:12.

[njvack]

I agree, it's It's a little odd that Orc can spawn earlier than Lair. (Although: Slime spawns earlier than Vaults...) But! One of the recurring themes in Crawl is that approaching every threat as soon as you see it will get you killed. Yeah, new players will venture into Orc too early and die sometimes, but new players are going to get killed by everything everywhere for a while. That's learning Crawl.

The approach I've liked most is entry vaults for Orc -- a knight or troll or a few warriors are a pretty good hint that maybe you should come back later.

[KoboldLord]

This topic again? There's already a couple buried threads on the subject.

The Orcish Mines are not that hard, and depending on your character it may be favorable to dip in for a bit to pick up a branded weapon, branded body armor, or some gold. It also provides a large supply of piety with minimal resting if you're trying to top off your piety with certain deities quickly and easily, most particularly Vehumet and Kiku. Top-end casters, stone giants, and knights or warlords that spawn with crossbows can be dangerous, but that's nothing that can't normally be solved by using one consumable to run for the stairs. If you bullheadedly dive for Orc 4 and cannot be dissuaded from doing so no matter the opposition you face, that's on you.

Lair probably should not be as easy as it currently is. There are currently only a couple notable threats, namely spiny frogs and black mambas, with most of the rest being melee brutes no faster than the typical player character. The introduction of basilisks and catoblepae help, and hopefully Lair will continue to move in the direction of being more variant. One thing that I believe would probably help would be to add dragons to the random spawn table, at a suitable depth. Fire drakes are currently the only Lair monster with a ranged attack of consequence, and they really don't have the punch they need to be threatening. Mid-tier dragons are only marginally stronger than death yaks and don't spawn in packs, but are threatening enough at range that running for the stairwell is not guaranteed to be a good enough solution. Dragon vaults in Lair are pretty rare, but they're dangerous enough at that point that I treat them to extreme caution.

[njvack]

The other nice (or not, depending on balance thoughts) thing about adding dragons to Lair is an increased chance for an early dragon armour.

[KoboldLord]

I don't see a problem with taking armor off a dragon corpse in Lair. It's basically the same as getting a nice plate armour by taking it off an orc knight corpse in Orc.

[danharaj]

There are currently only a couple notable threats, namely spiny frogs and black mambas, with most of the rest being melee brutes no faster than the typical player character.

I strongly disagree. Lair has the best monster set in the game, in my opinion. All of the monsters are threatening in different ways. Even the ones that are 'melee brutes'. I'm also perplexed why you wouldn't mention blink frogs at all. You undervalue the item destruction of fire drakes, too. The lair ends add a lot of variety to the final dangers you face- including a dragon (my favorite end if it didn't have spiny worms...).

[KoboldLord]

I'm also perplexed why you wouldn't mention blink frogs at all.

Because they're basically just melee brutes. They have an annoying movement pattern and are EV-biased rather than AC-biased, but they're easy to run from and you can usually aggro only part of the pack at a time if you're reasonably careful. Run for a corridor, or at least a spot where your flanks are occupied by plants. Kill them as they come to you, and don't let them lure you out to kill runners if there are still healthy ones blinking around. If you picked up a light weapon of venom in your favored weapon class, this is a good time to switch to it.

You undervalue the item destruction of fire drakes, too.

Fire drakes are basically two orc wizards standing on each other's shoulders, only they can't Haste themselves. They aren't completely trivial, but if your character can hope to handle a hydra or a death yak a fire drake is going to feel like it's made of glass. They are a good start, but not nearly enough.

The lair ends add a lot of variety to the final dangers you face- including a dragon (my favorite end if it didn't have spiny worms...).

If a lot of those Lair 8 vault denizens were added to the standard Lair list as rare or deep spawns, it would really help. New monsters would help too, but there are plenty of existing monsters that could be on the list but aren't, and they could improve the status quo with only a small amount of effort required.

[onton]

I'd say a mottled dragon is more interesting and less annoying that a couple of fire drakes. It can not only force you to drop some stuff, but also retreat to a water patch to make the liquid flames go off, thus discouraging corridor fighting. Consequently, I think Lair needs more (shallow) water and less 4x4 ruined rooms layout, 'cause those are kinda boring aтв repetitive/

[Scalding Steam]

One of the recurring themes in Crawl is that approaching every threat as soon as you see it will get you killed. Yeah, new players will venture into Orc too early and die sometimes, but new players are going to get killed by everything everywhere for a while. That's learning Crawl.

Agreed, but that's pretty much the only reason to make Orc spawn earlier than Lair. And there are plenty of things in Crawl that teaches you not to engage everything as soon as you see it anyway.

This topic again? There's already a couple buried threads on the subject.

Shit, I should've used the search function before starting the thread

The Orcish Mines are not that hard

Sure, but it's at least as hard as Lair for most characters, which was why I suggested that it should spawn in approximately the same depths as Lair. I don't actually think it's a big problem, mind you, just some minor issue that I'd like to see fixed.

Lair probably should not be as easy as it currently is.

I recall reading in GDD a thread about improving Lair. Someone in the thread suggested that swamp drakes should spawn in Lair as well; I think it's a pretty good idea and would like to see that implemented. (That'd make Swamp less unique, sure, but it's not like anyone actually cares about Swamp anyway!)

I'd say a mottled dragon is more interesting and less annoying that a couple of fire drakes.

When did monsters that essentially force you to do tedious things like dropping all your scrolls before fighting them become "intersting" and "not annoying"?

[onton]

When did monsters that essentially force you to do tedious things like dropping all your scrolls before fighting them become "intersting" and "not annoying"?

The point is that a fire drake just encourages you to drop scrolls and fight in corridors. Scrolls burning is annoying for sure, but it's rather a problem of liquid flame than of mottled dragons vs fire drakes.