Quick word about MD


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Swamp Slogger

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Post Sunday, 4th March 2012, 20:32

Quick word about MD

EDIT: I'm Cool about this now, even though my opinion remains the same about the Dwarfs

Original Message:

*coughs*
Hi. Umm this is a bit awkward for me. So i will try to keep it short.

I do not agree or support the Idea that MD should be removed from DC:SS at all.
I am aware that this topic has been greatly debated already. (I just found out about this today)
Thats not why i am posting.

I am posting here to ask the developers to remove all the tiles i have submitted to the game.
I do not want you to use them anymore because of this.

This means most (if not all) of the blood tiles and a couple of title screens.
Last edited by omndra on Sunday, 4th March 2012, 21:34, edited 1 time in total.

Mines Malingerer

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Post Sunday, 4th March 2012, 20:39

Re: Quick word about MD

I'am not a Dev but i think you just cannot ask this
If you haven't specified any license agreement for your work, it is just part of Crawl release under (if i am not wrong) GPL2
So once it have been release, you can't do anything to prevent any GPL2 project to use them, including Crawl
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Swamp Slogger

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Post Sunday, 4th March 2012, 20:47

Re: Quick word about MD

Its not like I plan to take any legal actions against anyone.
I just dont want them to use my work anymore.

Hopefully the Devs here respect me enough to throw them out.
Oh wait, they dont.
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Eringya's Employee

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Post Sunday, 4th March 2012, 20:47

Re: Quick word about MD

Even if you were legally covered asking for such a thing (which I'm almost certain you aren't) this is just not cool... -_-
MuCK;
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Swamp Slogger

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Post Sunday, 4th March 2012, 20:53

Re: Quick word about MD

I am fairly certain i can ask any question i want to.
Is it also Illegal to ask an individual what their favorite food is now?
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Eringya's Employee

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Post Sunday, 4th March 2012, 21:13

Re: Quick word about MD

@omndra;

I don't have anything personal against you, but saying what you said in your OP is just plain sad. While I'm sure people have appreciated your efforts to make tiles and whatever else you've done for DC:SS, this topic just makes you seem like a petty little person.

You're always entitled to reclaiming your work when you think it shouldn't be used, but I believe we're all aware of what made you reach such a decision. Not going to bother elaborating on this.

If you're fine with coming off as such a character, of course, willingly or not, good for you, I guess. I'm just a Crawl player saying my opinion. Hopefully the devs will be swell and rid you of your "torment".
MuCK;
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Dungeon Master

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Post Sunday, 4th March 2012, 21:18

Re: Quick word about MD

(Note: I am not a developer anymore, but I believe ombdra's request begs a quick response.)

Short: No, I don't think it will happen. If you're really bitter (sounds like you are), then demand your name/nick being cut from the credits.

Long: The idea that contributors can ask for their contributions to be removed is not just awkward (and uncool), it also goes directly against one principle of Crawl development, the Soup in DCSS: participation of non-developers is encouraged and supported. This just won't work if everyone has the right of reversion. For example, developer workload would increase a lot for no gain. (This is already true for contributions like vaults, speech, tiles but more so for anything code related.)

As I see it, this point has never been officially stated. Omndra's case shows it should be done, so add a clause to the relevant documentation that content, once accepted, is part of the package. (Note that you cannot prevent forks by people who don't care about who did what back in the day anyway.) In omndra's case, it wouldn't be hard to actually revert I guess, but I suggest not to do that -- there'll be less bad blood in the long run by ignoring his query. Not to mention the fact that the point of disagreement does not seem to have anything to do with the contributions, unless I am missing something.

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Swamp Slogger

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Post Sunday, 4th March 2012, 21:30

Re: Quick word about MD

"Omndra's case shows it should be done, so add a clause to the relevant documentation that content, once accepted, is part of the package."
Someone should probably go do that.

"It also goes directly against one principle of Crawl development, the Soup in DCSS: participation of non-developers is encouraged and supported. This just won't work if everyone has the right of reversion."
That calmed me down a great deal, I will admit that I did work myself up a bit too much about something relatively small.
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Dungeon Master

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Post Sunday, 4th March 2012, 22:04

Re: Quick word about MD

I'm pretty sure omndra still have the intellectual property of his work and has the right to change how it is licensed. However, if he says that it's no longer free to use, that would be technically almost impossible to enforce. And this is so uncool I don't think it ever happened into any Open Source project ever.
Anyway, since he calmed down, there's not much more to say. This topic is very slippery, so if you have something to say, try to be constructive about it. My finger is on the lock thread trigger.

omndra: if you're really upset about the MD removal, you're still free to open another thread about it, as long as you have something fresh to say. If you're really into dwarves, you can have a look at the forge dwarf proposal which has a working implementation and contribute to it. Or come up with an interesting design for another dwarven species.
<+Grunt> You dereference an invalid pointer! Ouch! That really hurt! The game dies...

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Dungeon Master

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Post Monday, 5th March 2012, 00:01

Re: Quick word about MD

Disclaimer: I'm also not a developer anymore, and I could never have assumed to be speaking for the team even if I were.

dpeg wrote:Long: The idea that contributors can ask for their contributions to be removed is not just awkward (and uncool), it also goes directly against one principle of Crawl development, the Soup in DCSS: participation of non-developers is encouraged and supported. This just won't work if everyone has the right of reversion. For example, developer workload would increase a lot for no gain. (This is already true for contributions like vaults, speech, tiles but more so for anything code related.)

To be fair, with tiles (and especially title screens), removing content would be fairly simple. I do agree, however, that it would be an extremely slippery slope - in particular, yanking code back out would be close to impossible without severely harming the project. And even for tiles, it would be hard to enforce - there's nothing preventing the players from sharing sets of title screens they like, and I wouldn't want to be the one to have to take legal action against them. Also, with the way Stonesoup development works, chances are the originally provided content has since been modified by other contributors, who might not be happy to see (what they now feel to be) their work thrown out. Bad blood all around == not good for the community.

As a player, I can understand players being unhappy about certain changes, especially if they had no idea it was coming. At the same time, I also understand that development sometimes calls for harsh decisions. As a member of the community, I hope and rather expect us to weather the dissent.

As I see it, this point has never been officially stated. Omndra's case shows it should be done, so add a clause to the relevant documentation that content, once accepted, is part of the package.

Good point.

For anyone interested in the Forge Dwarf suggestion, here's the link to the wiki page:
https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php? ... orge_dwarf

If anyone wants to discuss it in more detail than is possible on a wiki page, it's probably best to open a new thread for that.
Please report bugs to Crawl's bug tracker, and leave feedback on the development wiki. Thank you!

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Crypt Cleanser

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Post Monday, 5th March 2012, 04:37

Re: Quick word about MD

galehar wrote:I'm pretty sure omndra still have the intellectual property of his work and has the right to change how it is licensed. However, if he says that it's no longer free to use, that would be technically almost impossible to enforce.


The real problem here is that Omndra never explicitly licensed his work, nor Crawl explicitly asked a particular license (only saying in the doc that most of them is public license from rltiles).

But while Omndra can put a closed license on his tiles (even those bloods and titles), he CAN'T CHANGE the license of existing tiles in Crawl (if really public domain). Like the paid game that use some of those tiles, that didn't mean that now everybody has to pay for using those. Nor that it's illegal for me to re-release those tiles with or without modification under the license of my choice.

CC0 1.0 Universal (CC0 1.0)
Public Domain Dedication wrote:
The person who associated a work with this deed has dedicated the work to the public domain by waiving all of his or her rights to the work worldwide under copyright law, including all related and neighboring rights, to the extent allowed by law.

You can copy, modify, distribute and perform the work, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. See Other Information below.


While Crawl is protected by the GNU license (can't be made closed source), the tiles doesn't have proper licensing.
crawl-ref/licence.txt wrote:While a vast majority of the tiles are in the Public Domain, there is no
accurate list.
To err on the side of caution, please refer to Chris Hamons'
collection at http://code.google.com/p/crawl-tiles/


Maybe we should give a proper license to every tiles (like creative common, CC-O or CC-BY) and explicitly say in tiles_creation.txt that every contribution should be under this license.

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Swamp Slogger

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Post Wednesday, 7th March 2012, 03:34

Re: Quick word about MD

Why isn't this locked yet?

Edit: I also don't really think i can really add anything to the removal of MD discussion other than i dont like it.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Wednesday, 7th March 2012, 08:30

Re: Quick word about MD

Locked.

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