Brainstorm: improving Yred, and permalichform

[eeviac]

Some ideas I had after discussion in the necromutation thread:

I. Yred is pretty bad in extended.

II. Permanent lichform
A. is interesting, because everyone loves the upsides to mummies.
B. must be markedly better than hopefully-soon-to-be-implemented toggled necromutation, to compensate for not being able to change back
C. makes most sense as a god gift, because the best tmut and necro spells are unavailable to undead, thus requiring the training of either skill is counterproductive.
D. Because Kiku both requires training necromancy and gifts necromutation, Yred fits this bill the best. The bonuses to permalich would come through new Yred abilities, to discourage abandoning the god as soon as you receive the gift.

III. New Yred would feature a Kiku-like choice for the 6* gift, as not all would want lichform, and others wouldn't want to micromanage summons in pan. Two paths, both giving Yred more of an edge late-game:
A. improved allies: Yred now only gifts bone dragons/servitors/ghouls. Servitors and ghouls come with better gear. New abilities allowing you to heal allies/give buffs for piety. Instantly call a new ally for piety and stat drain, or 1 max HP, or something significant.
B. improved lichform: You lose all summons and related abilities to become a Lich - functionally the same as permanent necromutation - and new god abilities that circumvent/alleviate the drawbacks of being undead. One example being delayed potion use for HP/stat recovery. Perhaps a version of death's door with massive piety drain. These abilities would have to be pretty good to compete with improved allies, or even give Mu/Gh/Vp a reason to take this path.

IV. Because 6* piety can be achieved relatively early, and improved allies would break most of the game, the gift must be delayed in some way. You only receive it at the Crypt:5 altar. Or some new unique occupying that floor would carry the actual black torch, and you reclaiming it at max piety triggers the choice. Conquer the rebellious undead and Yred makes you the ultimate avatar. Something flavourful, though I'm wary of making it too much like a 'quest'.


Comments? Ideas? I think there's a lot of potential here.

edit for some formatting.

[galehar]

very nice, thanks.
We can salvage some ideas... Grab a phylactery from the bottom of the crypt, bring it to Yred's altar, cast necromutation and become an UberLich
Or reflavour the normal necromutation to another type of undead (Lich being "toggable" is pretty bad flavour). , Lich becomes Yred's exclusive, permanent and better than necromut to make up for being permanent.
But better how?

[wesleyshaver]

Here is how:

1. Yred grants permanent Lichform.

2. Necromutation is replaced by "Mummify" which grants mummy-form and all the bonuses/penalties that entails (rf-, no potions).

Rather than making Yred's Lichform into a Lichform+ just nerf the spell version instead.

[galehar]

Rather than making Yred's Lichform into a Lichform+ just nerf the spell version instead.

Why? I keep hearing that necromutation is actually one of the most well balanced high level spell.

[eeviac]

Yes, please, leave necromutation alone. It's got definite strengths and weaknesses. It's an interesting but not overpowered spell.

My vision of new Yred is that, once you get his ultimate gift, he either super buffs your undead warrior allies, or turns you into the ultimate undead warrior. Path A keeps recall, animate dead, and enslave soul while gaining several new ally-centric abilities and the best summons. Path B keeps pain mirror, drain life, and gains several new abilities that specifically help a permanently undead character, while losing ally gifting and ally-related abilities.

[eeviac]

I think galehar means going in and out of a 'Lich' form is bad flavour, and that necromutation should change you into something else, like a phantasmal warrior. Not actually changing the spell. Changing into a lich implies permenence.

[eeviac]

I don't really care myself, but it would be good to have differentiation between the necromutation form and the permanent form. Since Yred is more fighter than mage, and Liches cast a lot of spells, perhaps necromutation keeps the Lich form, and Yred changes you into one of those special vault skeletal warrior-mages that I can't remember the name of. Ancient something.

[galehar]

Changing into a lich implies permenence.

Maybe it does in D&D and whatever other sources you were thinking of

You mean in every other sources you could ever think of. We prefer using flavour from classical mythologies rather than D&D and tolkien, but as far as I know, Lich have always been about powerful wizards in search of eternal life. Gary Gygax didn't invented them.
That said, I prefer to keep necromutation as is rather than changing the undead form into a lame one. Mummy form is anything but cool.

[absolutego]

yeah, but the problem is that there are so many caveats with this new "spell" (single-use, requires a gadget, and what's this about delayed potion use and the like?) that it's clear that it doesn't fit the description of what a spell should be. if the spell's too nonsensical or unflavourful for crawl, i'd rather just see it removed. but i don't think it'll come to that, nor do i advocate it.

on the other hand, i really like it as optional yred god gift. you could get it without training necromancy and transmutations or ever using spells. he'd be just as strong for a 3-runer and would be a choice the extended endgame (by that time you usually don't rely on potions). i'd make it identical to lich form, but with mummy's self-restoration ability.

one caveat: yred should take demon kills for this to work. he should also have a pretty damn bad wrath to discourage abandonment. but for a first draft, the god power and the phylactery thing seem enough (the need to find a phylactery means that you can't access it very early to have a mummy with good apts, stats, and no vulnerability to fire, if that suits you).

and hell, another: i'm not a good player and i don't often play mummies, but in my limited experience they are pretty good for hells, pan and tomb as long as you can meet some requirements (some means to heal wounds, clarity or high MR). better players may disagree.

[galehar]

Forget about my first post in this thread. If you need to be able to cast the spell to get the god gift, it's much less interesting. And while the permanency of Lich isn't specific to D&D, the phylactery is. And the actual purpose of a phylactery is to regenerate the Lich's body when it is killed, so it doesn't fit with crawl at all.

[absolutego]

i was actually talking about your original proposal. that's why discussions should be kept on a single thread unless it really goes off the rails. please picture me shaking my fist at eevlac.

you can reflavour the phylactery (i learnt what that was like two weeks ago) in that you need a vessel to contain your soul or something along those lines. call it a "gem soul" if you want. what i like about that proposal is that you have to hunt for an item which can be dangerous to obtain (even if it is guaranteed), as opposed to just mummifying yourself when you reach 6* with yred only to abandon him, wait out the wrath and become a souped up mummy. maybe i worry too much about power gaming. (the power gamers will now tell me this plan sucks.) i still like the general outline, though. yred should be viable for the extended, and this could help and fits the theme very well.

[eeviac]

i was actually talking about your original proposal. that's why discussions should be kept on a single thread unless it really goes off the rails. please picture me shaking my fist at eevlac.

sorry, I figured the original thread was specifically about necromutation, and I'm rambling about general Yred improvements, that it was enough of a derail to warrant a new thread. If a mod sees this, maybe they can combine the threads.

[njvack]

Yeah -- Yred's whole niche is (some) necromancy without the magic investment

As people pointed out in the other necromutation thread, lichform isn't all upside. And I agree with galehar that the whole "I get to be undead for a little while" thing is a bit odd.

So, for a more radical proposal:

* Ditch the necromutation spell altogether. Since it's often used to shield from torment, perhaps replace it with a spell (maybe Necro/Charm?) that provides partial torment resistance (stacking with Kiku's), but rots you a bit.

* As suggested above, Yred may gift permalichhood ("Eternal Unlife?") at 6*. As long as you're following Yred, maybe you get some Special Lich Perks (potions, etc) as described in the other necromut thread; they probably cost some piety. You also get your species' aptitudes and stats. Even abandoning yred doesn't bring you back to life; you just lose your Special Lich Perks and are probably punished with rot and statrot, which are now newly-hard to cure.

Having some other obstacle to getting your 6* gift does seem reasonable, as it's not like yred is underpowered in the living branches. Getting "The Black Torch" has a certain flair, though I do see the "it's too much like a quest" argument, too.

And I agree with the other premise of this thread: there should be some reasonable way to maintain yred piety in the demonic branches. Just accepting demon kills is probably easier than other proposals I've read...

[njvack]

sorry, I figured the original thread was specifically about necromutation, and I'm rambling about general Yred improvements, that it was enough of a derail to warrant a new thread. If a mod sees this, maybe they can combine the threads.

Eh, I think they're different enough to warrant their own threads....?

[BlackSheep]

So, for a more radical proposal:

* Ditch the necromutation spell altogether. Since it's often used to shield from torment, perhaps replace it with a spell (maybe Necro/Charm?) that provides partial torment resistance (stacking with Kiku's), but rots you a bit.

Lichskin!

[Dustbin]

Yred is already pretty powerful in 3- 5 runes, I don't think he really needs buffs.
I'm not a huge fan of the permanent necromute either, but I think it could be a workable idea if you could use piety to "revert" to living for a short period of time, like a reverse necromute. Although I think it only fits with yred thematically, not wih the playstyle at all. Also the only getting gifted powerful servants is a nice idea, but it is far too easy to max out piety early on, and the servants can win a 3-rune for you almost alone already.

[banei]

Yred is already pretty powerful in 3- 5 runes, I don't think he really needs buffs.
I'm not a huge fan of the permanent necromute either, but I think it could be a workable idea if you could use piety to "revert" to living for a short period of time, like a reverse necromute.

Exactly what was passing through my mind. Here's my proposal:
1. At max piety, Yred offers necromutation without any costs (piety/skills) when you're on a tile with one of his altars.
2. While necromutated (god/spell) while following Yred, you can stay in such a state permanently
3. You always have the option to revert (important to get rid of rot and stat loss, or to save yourself), but doing so irks Yred (lose 80 piety, never go below 1 piety)

[TehDruid]

And I agree with the other premise of this thread: there should be some reasonable way to maintain yred piety in the demonic branches. Just accepting demon kills is probably easier than other proposals I've read...

Am I the only one thinking that there should be a guaranteed Heaven Branch...? Like, the opposite of Hell. Yred (and Kiku?) really hates holies but apart from rare Pan levels and Zigs you don't really get to fight many holies. That would be a goldmine for piety.

Also, on the subject of hardly viable extended gods, Fedhas should give piety for undead kills since he's so against necromantic magic.

About the OP, I like the option of a god that can make you into a permanent lich with the benefits and drawbacks that this entails. Although I'm not sure about making this better than the spell. Not having to have necromancy & mutations at high levels (and finding the Necronomicon) sounds nice anyway and the benefits of lich form out-weigh the drawbacks. It shouldn't be toggle-able imho.

[XuaXua]

And I agree with the other premise of this thread: there should be some reasonable way to maintain yred piety in the demonic branches. Just accepting demon kills is probably easier than other proposals I've read...

Am I the only one thinking that there should be a guaranteed Heaven Branch...?

An air level to counter Shoals (water level), Volcano (fire portal), Ice Cave (ice portal), or Snake (closest to earth level, I guess).

[crate]

Also, on the subject of hardly viable extended gods, Fedhas should give piety for undead kills since he's so against necromantic magic.

The only way to actually lose Fedhas piety in extended is having oklobs die or using Rain, so this isn't really a big deal anyway (except in holypan or the very rare other instances where you get enemies with corpses). Fedhas piety doesn't decay.

[KoboldLord]

You mean in every other sources you could ever think of. We prefer using flavour from classical mythologies rather than D&D and tolkien, but as far as I know, Lich have always been about powerful wizards in search of eternal life. Gary Gygax didn't invented them.
That said, I prefer to keep necromutation as is rather than changing the undead form into a lame one. Mummy form is anything but cool.

Actually, I don't think there's a single modern corpse-like lich in any source that doesn't draw from D&D. The D&D lich/phylactery isn't entirely original, being 'very loosely based' on figures from eastern European folklore, but the most prominent independent take on the same mythical sources would be Voldemort from the Harry Potter series. Who is, I believe, not intended to be the model for the Necromutation spell.

[njvack]

Actually, I don't think there's a single modern corpse-like lich in any source that doesn't draw from D&D. The D&D lich/phylactery isn't entirely original, being 'very loosely based' on figures from eastern European folklore, but the most prominent independent take on the same mythical sources would be Voldemort from the Harry Potter series. Who is, I believe, not intended to be the model for the Necromutation spell.

<offtopic nerd hat>
Actually: there's a character in Lloyd Alexander's Taran Wanderer who seems pretty lichlike -- he's transfered his soul into a severed finger bone, I believe. He's not explicitly described as undead, but he's also not exactly alive. Anyhow, that book was from 1967, and predates D&D by a few years unless Wikipedia is lying to me.
</offtopic nerd hat>

One other thought on Yred, lichform, and extended: What if Yred accepted demon kills, but only by undead players? He could gift permalich at 6* piety, and you could take that gift in order to maintain piety in Hell/Pan...

Of course, the question of why you'd do that and not just abandon him remains :/

[JeffQyzt]

Note that if you wanted to give Yred a permanent (or semi-permanent) undead transformation ability as a divine blessing, it doesn't necessarily have to be equivalent to a Lich or Mummy, which are currently biased a bit toward caster archetypes in game.

• Call it a "Death Knight". Give it whatever characteristics in addition to the "undead common set" you want.
• Alternately, a "gift" of vampirism would allow some of the undead/living toggling (though not removal of dispel undead susceptibility)

[dmurray]

Something that I don't think has been mention thus far: when you die and are a followed of Yred, it says "you die and rise as a mindless zombie".
Wouldn't that imply that once you're undead and a follow of Yred that you are effectively his slave? So, at max piety or whatever, why not give something of a choice, like Kiku has?

Maybe a toggable undead form? Something like "Yred is pleased and now grants you the ability to shift between life and death, at the cost of X piety". Obviously this would be a lot of piety (since Yred gives it out the wazoo) and it would stop from being toggled so often (since being able to instantly toggle between the bonuses of being alive/undead is pretty broken).
You wouldn't have no regen, just a lot slower and maybe you need (if it's possible) to keep killing or else the transformation ends with say... some max HP missing. So nothing like playing as a mummy in a labryinth or anything. And the benefit of the last point is that it plays greatly into the lore of DC. Think about it: you worship this god, you die and get risen as a mindless zombie. So he just likes undead slaves. You're a good undead slave,though, so as long as you keep killing for him, he lets you have free will but if you stop, you get punished with a cost of some max HP.

And the second choice could be something to do with your slaves. Maybe you could use 2 or 3 enslaved souls at once (but only one unique). On one hand, it allows you to keep three pets, so to speak, but on the other hand, the downside is that while you can pick three of them, they're just monsters and can die (maybe Yred can give some sort of boost to keeping them alive) but you can take them from floor to floor and unlike the slaves Yred gives you, you have a choice and can still pick what two you like, along with a unique.

As for the whole Lich, D&D argument. Off the top of my head is LotR with the One Ring and Sauron. While a phylactery is pretty much unique in name and how it was used in D&D. But I'm sure there are hundreds of stories or myths of people putting their power/life force into various objects, charms, animals, etc. I guess D&D just modernized it or made it more popular.

[ebarrett]

Of course, the question of why you'd do that and not just abandon him remains :/

Just make it impossible to abandon him after transforming - an evil god claiming eternal allegiance in exchange for an ultimate gift. After all, it's Yred himself that keeps you in undeath, not you. Without Yred you'd just fall to the ground, completely lifeless. For flavour, the "gift" ritual is Yred killing you and raising you as a lich/death knight/unholy champion/elite servitor/whatever.

[njvack]

Just make it impossible to abandon him after transforming - an evil god claiming eternal allegiance in exchange for an ultimate gift.

That's fair enough. Taking it a step farther, then: what if it weren't a gift you can accept or decline, but something that just... happens... to Yred followers?

[ebarrett]

what if it weren't a gift you can accept or decline, but something that just... happens... to Yred followers?

That sounds like it would become extremely metagamey at best, and something that would completely destroy some games at worst.

[KoboldLord]

If you were running a character that would be 'completely destroyed' by getting a divine gift from a particular deity, it should probably occur to you in advance to choose some other deity to follow. Yeah, you might have to give up on reskilling into that book of high-level transmutations you found because you're eventually going to become undead, but you already made a similar choice to give up wielding that holy wrath triple sword because Yred gives penance for using it.

[crate]

Or you could aim to make Yred more attractive and convenient instead of less attractive and convenient. I don't really have a problem with how current Yred works but if I were forced into lichform to follow him I'd never bother playing another game under Yred.

[ebarrett]

If you were running a character that would be 'completely destroyed' by getting a divine gift from a particular deity, it should probably occur to you in advance to choose some other deity to follow. Yeah, you might have to give up on reskilling into that book of high-level transmutations you found because you're eventually going to become undead, but you already made a similar choice to give up wielding that holy wrath triple sword because Yred gives penance for using it.

You are missing the point. Some chars being forced into either switching gods or deliberately burning away piety to avoid being "rewarded" with something they don't want is something so bad that I can't even possibly imagine how two people already think it's a good idea, to the point where I can't even come up with a reasonable counterargument - the idea itself is its own counterargument, it's self-explanatory in its awfulness, that's how horrible it looks to me.

[TehDruid]

I've always been kinda curious about the message you get when you die under Yredelemnul.

Since you're supposed to be the champion of death himself, I think the following would be quite fitting;

How about if you die at (or after attaining the appropriate amount of like the other special god gifts) high piety Yredelemnul "revives" you (if not undead already) as an undead? Some ways that may happen;

* You become a lich, as the OP suggested. Maybe a nerfed one if it seems OP, since this second chance at life is a very powerful thing anyway.
* You rise as a Ghoul of the same level as your character (or perhaps suffer a level drain like Felids) when he/she died and gain the apts and intrinsics of a Gh PC and same food clock habits. Skill levels are adjusted accordingly (this should probably apply only negatively).
* You play as your ghost from now on with whatever that entails. No bones file left.

So those that don't want the Lich form being enforced on you merely by reaching high piety or involving any kind of "quest", should be happy. At least death seems less of a disappointment with the above idea, right?

[njvack]

It'd be broken if you could metagame it -- it definitely couldn't be based on current piety, though lifetime piety gain would be possible. Probably the exact transition time would need to be somewhat random. The transition could even be gradual, like vampires transitioning to thirstiness.

I'm not saying "yred should hit you with permanent necromutation after a while" but rather that it might be interesting if choosing some god meant that at some point, your character would be hit with a major change beyond your control. You'd need to plan for it and adapt when it happened.

The thing you'd become probably should not be exactly like lichform. Maybe undead followers get perks like strategic potion usage or piety-for-clarity or temporary "life" or something.

The thing I really *don't* like about it is that Yred is already pretty powerful and interesting through 3-4 runes of content. This would be probably more of a change than is warranted.

And: Some chars shouldn't take some gods.

[KoboldLord]

You are missing the point. Some chars being forced into either switching gods or deliberately burning away piety to avoid being "rewarded" with something they don't want is something so bad that I can't even possibly imagine how two people already think it's a good idea, to the point where I can't even come up with a reasonable counterargument - the idea itself is its own counterargument, it's self-explanatory in its awfulness, that's how horrible it looks to me.

No, I think you're missing the point. Were this implemented, it would be a good thing in some situations and a bad thing in other situations. The idea that you'd get onto the obviously slow-moving train that ends in undeath without considering that fact in advance is self-explanatory in its awfulness, and I'm not entirely clear why you're thinking that people would continue to choose Hypothetical New Yred with exactly the same characters as before. Yred would obviously have a very different niche compared to the current Yred, and that's neither good nor bad. Yred would probably be markedly less popular than before, but that's not necessarily a terrible thing since Yred currently overlaps in play style with both Fedhas and Beogh.

[Blade]

so you suggest making a generally somewhat unpopular god...less popular? And you are trying to do this by means of adding a required additional effect that would be harmful to many characters? There is absolutely no rationale for making it required rather than optional if it is implemented.

Alternatively, we could have Jiyva remove all your limbs and cause you to destroy every item you walk over at high piety. Sure, it'll reduce Jiyva's popularity, but it changes his playstyle in an interesting way and really...people know what they're getting when they take him. The idea that you'd get onto the obviously slow-moving train that ends in jelliness without considering the fact in advance is self-explanatory in its awfulness.

(making a god significantly worse for many/most of the characters who usually take that god is a bad, bad idea. ebarrett is completely right.)

[njvack]

The sense I get here is that people don't like the idea because permanent lichform would completely destroy (most?) characters.

IIRC, liches lose potions, some necro spells, holy weapons, self-transmutations, and become vulnerable to dispel undead. Which of those things are the completely destroying bits? (Or is it something else?) Could god abilities mitigate them? If so, there's even a reason for regular undead characters to consider this god.

I'm not saying "it would be awesome if a god made your character totally suck." That would totally suck. Even Blade's hypothetical 'jellification' would suck only if being a jelly also sucked. I think that avoiding the 'your character now totally sucks' end is possible.

[omegasean]

the death knight proposal is awesome ! give them death coil or something. or a runeblade.

... probably too much like warcraft..

[crate]

Basically permanent lichform turns you into a mummy except whoops you also don't get to worship either of the only two gods who might actually make being a mummy better than not being a mummy (Sif or maybe Nemelex) because you're stuck with Yred and even then you're still probably better off not being a mummy.

[njvack]

The things liches don't share with mummies, though, are nearly universal poor aptitudes, stats, and a pip of rF-, all of which make some difference before the endgame.

And anyhow: it'd be totally sane for this curse to come with powers that would make being undead more beneficial, hopefully in a way more interesting than channeling spam and experience cards.

[JeffQyzt]

it'd be totally sane for this curse to come with powers that would make being undead more beneficial, hopefully in a way more interesting than channeling spam and experience cards.

For instance

• It could come with an unholy aura that saps the life force of living enemies.
• It could modify the morale equation such that living opponents became more likely to flee.
• This wouldn't be part of the form itself, but Yred could grant some kind of piety based protection from dispel undead (perhaps similar to how rN reduces torment damage). This could be a unique Yred benefit (and could even perhaps extend to undead slaves...)

[Konebred]

Why not just a new tier of creatures that get summoned once you hit max * on piety? Create some Servitors of the damned or something thematic for him. Just make them more powerful so they aren't slain so easy in extended game.

[eeviac]

If the goal is just to make Yredelemnul good in extended that could probably be accomplished simply by making him give piety for demon kills (he hates nonliving monsters because they're "beyond the realm of life and death," so it doesn't seem like a stretch that he would hate demons for the same reason).

The trouble I see with this is one, Yred's typical servants are pretty heavily outclassed by the extended game threats (enjoy gifts of mummies and freezing wraiths while you run Gehenna), and two, look at Yred's abilities:

Pain Mirror
Recall Undead Slaves
Animate Dead
Drain Life
Enslave Soul

Pain Mirror and Recall are the only ones that work in hells/pan. I don't want to scrap these though, because they're great fun for the game before that. which is why my first ideas involve Yred changing into a new god of sorts once you can receive his ultimate gift.

[Blade]

Bone Dragons and Profane Servitors never go out of style.

[eeviac]

Bone Dragons and Profane Servitors never go out of style.

Yes, that's why they were mentioned in the OP. (I'm not even sure about servitors though, umbra won't accomplish anything and they can't lifesteal from demons)