The larger species and fragility


Although the central place for design discussion is ##crawl-dev on freenode, some may find it helpful to discuss requests and suggestions here first.

Dungeon Master

Posts: 1613

Joined: Thursday, 16th December 2010, 21:54

Post Wednesday, 7th March 2012, 13:10

Re: The larger species and fragility

+3 Fighting, +3 M&F and the easy availability of GSCs really is a big deal though - I don't think they need any more oomph than that, personally.
User avatar

Barkeep

Posts: 4435

Joined: Tuesday, 11th January 2011, 12:28

Post Wednesday, 7th March 2012, 13:31

Re: The larger species and fragility

TwilightPhoenix wrote:Making them less fragile for most of the game would make Ogres feel more... well... Ogreish


I'm not sure I agree; the monster Ogres are also very much glass cannons.
I am not a very good player. My mouth is a foul pit of LIES. KNOW THIS.

For this message the author njvack has received thanks:
rebthor
User avatar

Vaults Vanquisher

Posts: 451

Joined: Sunday, 11th September 2011, 00:07

Post Wednesday, 7th March 2012, 18:07

Re: The larger species and fragility

Look, if you think ogres picking up a shield is a toss-up with using the first GSC you find, and that GSC aren't exponentially better than any other weapon, and that enchanting a weapon you found on the floor isn't better than hoping for the rng to chuck you an improbably godly artefact 99.9999% of the time if you aren't following trog (which if you are, will gift your ogre a godly artefact GSC anyway), and that troll leather isn't more than enough to win the game with, you might spare yourself (and everyone else) the walls of text - this isn't really going anywhere and there is no use trying.
Your warning level: [CLASSIFIED]
User avatar

Pandemonium Purger

Posts: 1341

Joined: Monday, 24th October 2011, 06:13

Post Wednesday, 7th March 2012, 20:01

Re: The larger species and fragility

On the one hand,

Image
(look at the hit points, then the character level, then back at the hit points)

On the other hand, not every ogre is an all-out melee powerhouse. There was some intent behind merging them with Ogre-mages, though that intent has never really been explained and it remains something of a waste to pump Ogres full of magic. You cannot have that kind of HP with melee (trog) alone, and you cannot rely on magic alone to save your fat ass because of the terrible aptitudes.

I still think that my simple argument is the best one: two-headed ogres can wield two GSCs - one in each hand. Size is accounted for when smaller species are unable to even throw a Javelin, or when a Troll is restricted from wearing booties to keep their feet warm in Ice Caverns. Why not acknowledge that Ogres are able (through size) and adept (lacking dexterity, or grace to proficiently use precision weapons like blades) enough to use two handed weapons with one hand? Like ogre-mages, two-headed ogres are no bigger than their plain cousins, and can wield two GSCs. A shield in one hand and the best weapon in the game held by the other is not too terrible of a concept when drops are just not that great, or you're worshiping Fedhas and get no divine gifts, or you're one of those players who is not ebarret and doesn't subscribe to the knowledge that singular run-on sentence espouses - the majority of crawl players.

Besides, no-brainers are frowned upon in the design philosophy. I believe your entire point is that using a GSC is a no-brainer, and to think otherwise is beyond stupid - it is unarguable.

I have another suggestion: get rid of sludge elves, increase Ogres aptitudes in transmutation and earth. Change the name of "Transmuter" to "Shaman:" transmuter is a boring name, and shamans are making a good appearance in the game with Gnoll variety. Get ogres used to using HP-boosting spells like statue form to make up for their defensive shortcomings if they are not meant to use gigantic weapons with one hand.
seattle washington. friends for life. mods hate on me and devs ignore my posts. creater of exoelfs and dc:pt
User avatar

Pandemonium Purger

Posts: 1341

Joined: Monday, 24th October 2011, 06:13

Post Wednesday, 7th March 2012, 20:49

Re: The larger species and fragility

You're crossing into no-brainer territory as well. All berserkers are melee characters. Not all melee characters are berserkers. My last mimo:

  Code:
 a - the +20,+20 Sword of Power (weapon)
   (You bought it in a shop on level 8 of the Dungeon)

 i - the +2 pair of fencer's gloves (worn) {EV+3 Dex+3 Acc+8}
   (You bought it in a shop on level 4 of the Orcish Mines) 

F - the +2 pair of boots of Xeppeff {Acc+4 Stlth++}
   (You found it in the Abyss)

b - the ring "Rochoe Ghoutt" (right hand) {Wiz rF++ rC+ Acc+3}
   (You found it on level 5 of the Elven Halls) 

r - +10 pearl dragon armour


This character was so powerful that CAO simply decided it could no longer exist: http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/twelw ... 051705.txt

Was there ever a time when I decided a shield was necessary? No, yet I pumped shields for TSO's Divine Shield ability, which I rarely used. I understand your point: defensive stats, sometimes even resists, lose meaning when you hit so fast, so hard, and never miss. But a minotaur is as close to being shoehorned into one type of playstyle as possible. If it is a no-brainer for both minotaurs and Ogres to be mindless melee powerhouses, why have both in the game? Why give one every slot except the head for equipment and a powerful counter-attack ability that stays relevant throughout the entire game, while another can only equip the most selective of gear, has the most min/max aptitudes in the game, and has proficiency in spellcasting? Flavor IS the answer in this circumstance and, merit aside, flavor is my logical pillar in this argument. Absent of the defensive capabilities that can only be acquired from more min/maxing of gear and skills, shields + two handers make the most sense. No one new to crawl is going to understand that dragon armour is their best option for ogres, and likewise, they will not understand that pumping armour pre-pearl hides will be beneficial later. You'd be troubled to find someone who doesn't understand the purpose of a shield.

The argument about dual wielding isn't something that I'm interested in, though I'd guess that sort of change would be more beneficial to casters who can gain from equipping two weapons with negative damage/accuracy because they have great stats. My current deep elf offline has a -5/-3 broad axe with rC++ and would benefit from a similar weapon. I don't see why this is even being brought up in this discussion.
seattle washington. friends for life. mods hate on me and devs ignore my posts. creater of exoelfs and dc:pt
User avatar

Dungeon Master

Posts: 4031

Joined: Thursday, 16th December 2010, 20:37

Location: France

Post Wednesday, 7th March 2012, 21:14

Re: The larger species and fragility

The original proposal was to let them wield normal 2 handers (great mace) with shield, not GSC. Or there wouldn't be much of a choice.
<+Grunt> You dereference an invalid pointer! Ouch! That really hurt! The game dies...
User avatar

Eringya's Employee

Posts: 1783

Joined: Friday, 7th October 2011, 19:24

Location: Athens, Greece

Post Wednesday, 7th March 2012, 23:05

Re: The larger species and fragility

Yeah, please read the OP so you know what we're talking about... :P
MuCK;
  Code:
612 | D:1      | Xom revived you
614 | D:1      | Xom revived you
614 | D:1      | Slain by a gnoll
User avatar

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1189

Joined: Friday, 28th January 2011, 21:45

Post Thursday, 8th March 2012, 07:00

Re: The larger species and fragility

njvack wrote:
TwilightPhoenix wrote:Making them less fragile for most of the game would make Ogres feel more... well... Ogreish


I'm not sure I agree; the monster Ogres are also very much glass cannons.


When I say that, I mean Ogres in general, not just Crawl. But if Crawl wants glass cannon Ogres, that's fine, I'd rather them be made more suitable for the role, and not in such a limited fashion as they can be now.


ebarrett wrote:Look, if you think ogres picking up a shield is a toss-up with using the first GSC you find, and that GSC aren't exponentially better than any other weapon, and that enchanting a weapon you found on the floor isn't better than hoping for the rng to chuck you an improbably godly artefact 99.9999% of the time if you aren't following trog (which if you are, will gift your ogre a godly artefact GSC anyway), and that troll leather isn't more than enough to win the game with, you might spare yourself (and everyone else) the walls of text - this isn't really going anywhere and there is no use trying.



Or, you know, you could stop making assumptions about me. Besides, if the GSC is as much of a no brainer as you imply, intentionally or not, then it is, by Crawl's design philosophy, a problem. There, that short enough for you? :P


Anyway, on the wield all two-handers as one handers, barring the GSC, I don't think it would help since this would mean all the other top tier 2-handers can be used with a shield. Though it wouldn't be common, imagine a triple sword or an executioner's axe with a large shield. That would just be silly, crappy apts or not, and not in a good way.

Hmmm, random idea. Maybe Ogres can go into a bit of a frenzied state, making them better fighters in some fashion when their HP is low, like at 1/4 or 1/3. This would actually play well to being both a glass cannon and having high HP and low defenses, as they could have a decent chunk of health left despite missing 75% or 66% of their health. This way they could actually benefit a bit from their general fragility.
The best strategy most frequently overlooked by new players for surviving: not starting a fight to begin with.
User avatar

Dungeon Master

Posts: 4031

Joined: Thursday, 16th December 2010, 20:37

Location: France

Post Thursday, 8th March 2012, 08:55

Re: The larger species and fragility

TwilightPhoenix wrote:When I say that, I mean Ogres in general, not just Crawl. But if Crawl wants glass cannon Ogres, that's fine, I'd rather them be made more suitable for the role, and not in such a limited fashion as they can be now.

So, in what fiction Ogres are anything else than big and tough, unarmoured, and not dodgy? They hit hard but are only a danger to very young heroes and they go down easily to any experienced ones. I can't remember any ogre dangerous enough to the protagonists to even have a name.

Anyway, let's stop with the personal attacks and try to get something out of this thread. Currently, it seems that melee Ogres have a choice between GSC and evening star + shield (or dire flail). Is that even a choice? I guess it is for primary casters who just need a decent melee weapon to take out trivial monsters while saving MP. But let's consider an ogre for which melee is their primary attack. Is the one-hander+shield a viable alternative to GSC for them?
Now, what about great mace + shield? Would it be a more interesting choice? Could weapon stats tweaks make it a more interesting choice?
<+Grunt> You dereference an invalid pointer! Ouch! That really hurt! The game dies...

Mines Malingerer

Posts: 32

Joined: Friday, 25th March 2011, 12:37

Post Thursday, 8th March 2012, 09:16

Re: The larger species and fragility

To me the only reason to play an Ogre is to use a bigger weapon than any other race can use effectively, being able to use a great mace with a shield would fit the bill just as well as a GSC, but I would think that gmace + shield would be even more of a no-brainer than GSC since they can generate enchanted/branded and due to the large race shield bonus.

If Ogres had viable (as in 'is worth choosing for character strength as opposed to for flavour or fun') 1- and 2-handed choices I think it would be a good thing. Couldn't the penalty for 1-handing a 2-handed weapon be made sufficiently large to keep both options useful while giving Ogres some perk for avoiding what is effectively their racial speciality?
User avatar

Dungeon Master

Posts: 4031

Joined: Thursday, 16th December 2010, 20:37

Location: France

Post Thursday, 8th March 2012, 09:44

Re: The larger species and fragility

rabidweasel wrote:I would think that gmace + shield would be even more of a no-brainer than GSC since they can generate enchanted/branded and due to the large race shield bonus.

Yes, we don't want to replace a no-brainer by another.

rabidweasel wrote:Couldn't the penalty for 1-handing a 2-handed weapon be made sufficiently large to keep both options useful while giving Ogres some perk for avoiding what is effectively their racial speciality?

Making the 1.5 handed penalty more significant would be a way to balance it if GM+shield turns out to make GSC irrelevant.
<+Grunt> You dereference an invalid pointer! Ouch! That really hurt! The game dies...

Vestibule Violator

Posts: 1567

Joined: Friday, 21st January 2011, 22:56

Post Thursday, 8th March 2012, 10:03

Re: The larger species and fragility

galehar wrote:I can't remember any ogre dangerous enough to the protagonists to even have a name.

Tazok in BG is a half-ogre. But there's Shrek. :)

dk

User avatar

Snake Sneak

Posts: 104

Joined: Wednesday, 7th December 2011, 22:20

Location: Germany

Post Thursday, 8th March 2012, 13:01

Re: The larger species and fragility

twelwe wrote:You're crossing into no-brainer territory as well. All berserkers are melee characters. Not all melee characters are berserkers. My last mimo:

  Code:
 a - the +20,+20 Sword of Power (weapon)
   (You bought it in a shop on level 8 of the Dungeon)

 i - the +2 pair of fencer's gloves (worn) {EV+3 Dex+3 Acc+8}
   (You bought it in a shop on level 4 of the Orcish Mines) 

F - the +2 pair of boots of Xeppeff {Acc+4 Stlth++}
   (You found it in the Abyss)

b - the ring "Rochoe Ghoutt" (right hand) {Wiz rF++ rC+ Acc+3}
   (You found it on level 5 of the Elven Halls) 

r - +10 pearl dragon armour


This character was so powerful that CAO simply decided it could no longer exist: http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/twelw ... 051705.txt

....


OT: O Level 27 Traps & Doors ?

Blades Runner

Posts: 554

Joined: Tuesday, 25th January 2011, 14:24

Post Thursday, 8th March 2012, 13:06

Re: The larger species and fragility

OT: O Level 27 Traps & Doors ?


twelwe (apparently) wanted the "Dungeon Master" title.
User avatar

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1189

Joined: Friday, 28th January 2011, 21:45

Post Thursday, 8th March 2012, 17:57

Re: The larger species and fragility

galehar wrote:So, in what fiction Ogres are anything else than big and tough, unarmoured, and not dodgy? They hit hard but are only a danger to very young heroes and they go down easily to any experienced ones. I can't remember any ogre dangerous enough to the protagonists to even have a name.



Well again, there's Shrek, who tends to kick everyone's ass when they try to attack him. There's the nameless ogre at the end of The Dragon and the George and it's clearly explained by a dragon that they're fully capable of killing them and are very difficult to take down. In Warcraft 2 you had Cho'Gall, a two-headed Ogre Mage, who was a good bit tougher than most other units and could cast spells on top of that. And you also had regular Ogres who were just as powerful as a heavily armed, armored, and mounted knight. Warcraft 3 had more Ogres, who were generally more dangerous than most other random enemies you'd encounter, and Rexxar, a half-ogre who was quite the ass-kicker. No, not going into WoW, only played a hour of it, and since it's a MMO a squirrel can slaughter armies of players if it's a high enough level. I also want to say Sword of Shanarra series had an ogre who had a name, don't remember which book and I might be mistaking it for a troll (it was a long time ago since I read it), but it was tough enough to take on one of the demons terrorizing the land on even terms and survive, said demons who could kill ordinary men rather easily and the protagonist wouldn't even try to fight them in fair combat.

Yeah, in all cases they're unarmored and not very evasive, but they're still tough as nails and can take a beating and keep dishing it out. At least, that's what I've been exposed to in terms of ogre fiction and media and hence why it'd feel "Ogreish" to me if they could take a beating. But again, this is Crawl, if glass cannon Ogres are the goal, it's fine. Putting it's own spin on various species always makes things more interesting.
The best strategy most frequently overlooked by new players for surviving: not starting a fight to begin with.
User avatar

Vestibule Violator

Posts: 1509

Joined: Wednesday, 21st September 2011, 01:10

Location: St. John's, NL, Canada

Post Thursday, 8th March 2012, 22:25

Re: The larger species and fragility

the Ogres in the Xanth novels (most prominent in "Ogre, Ogre" but existing throughout) are able to both take and receive damage quite well. They say the ogres are the toughest creatures, pound for pound (thus the largest dragons would overcome that). Definitely not dodgy though - often too stupid to get out of the way.
Won all race/bg, unwon (online): Nem* Hep Uka
Favourites: 15-rune Trog, OgNe/OgIE/OgSu (usually Ash), Ds, Ru, SpEn, Ce of Chei, Qaz
User avatar

Dungeon Master

Posts: 4031

Joined: Thursday, 16th December 2010, 20:37

Location: France

Post Thursday, 8th March 2012, 22:57

Re: The larger species and fragility

Sorry to have derailed the thread with my stupid question about Ogres in fiction. Can we go back to crawl's Ogres?
They already have been boosted significantly and while they are not newbie friendly, they are not weak. They question is not whether to buff them, but whether allowing them to wield great maces 1.5 handed would create an interesting alternative to GSC.
<+Grunt> You dereference an invalid pointer! Ouch! That really hurt! The game dies...
User avatar

Barkeep

Posts: 4435

Joined: Tuesday, 11th January 2011, 12:28

Post Friday, 9th March 2012, 12:36

Re: The larger species and fragility

galehar wrote:They question is not whether to buff them, but whether allowing them to wield great maces 1.5 handed would create an interesting alternative to GSC.


My gut feeling is that it does, even if the GSC is strictly better for most Ogre characters. For added fun, give Erolcha a chance at that combo and see if it makes her more interesting ;)
I am not a very good player. My mouth is a foul pit of LIES. KNOW THIS.

Mines Malingerer

Posts: 32

Joined: Friday, 25th March 2011, 12:37

Post Friday, 9th March 2012, 14:04

Re: The larger species and fragility

I've always wanted there to be ogre/troll warrior enemies which wore armour and occasionally used a shield as well. Orcs and nagas get such a fine treatment, let's have some love for the other big and burly races. This isn't really related to the topic but I find the argument 'well ogre monsters are kind of crappy and have no defenses so player ones should be the same' somewhat silly.

Slime Squisher

Posts: 369

Joined: Saturday, 3rd September 2011, 18:22

Post Saturday, 17th March 2012, 18:44

Re: The larger species and fragility

I like ogres thematically, they just rely on drops a whole lot. Hunters are awesome though, the giant rocks can kill pretty much all the early uniques fairly easy. I would like to see them being a little more dirty and nasty though. maybe they can have a cloud of foul odor around them that cuts back stealth but slows attack speed any adjacent sentient creature? They would too busy coughing and gagging to attack effectively or something.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 2996

Joined: Tuesday, 28th June 2011, 20:41

Location: Berlin

Post Saturday, 17th March 2012, 20:49

Re: The larger species and fragility

I like ogres thematically, they just rely on drops a whole lot. Hunters are awesome though, the giant rocks can kill pretty much all the early uniques fairly easy. I would like to see them being a little more dirty and nasty though. maybe they can have a cloud of foul odor around them that cuts back stealth but slows attack speed any adjacent sentient creature? They would too busy coughing and gagging to attack effectively or something.


Huh? You have your end-game weapon by D:5 in many games and you have full access to all gifting gods. Where's the problem with drops? If anything they're less reliant than others because they're not Dg and have GSC as their usual endgame weapon. And Hu has no problem with getting ammo past D:11 or so.
Previous

Return to Game Design Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 27 guests

cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by ST Software for PTF.