The larger species and fragility


Although the central place for design discussion is ##crawl-dev on freenode, some may find it helpful to discuss requests and suggestions here first.

User avatar

Eringya's Employee

Posts: 1782

Joined: Friday, 7th October 2011, 19:24

Location: Athens, Greece

Post Tuesday, 21st February 2012, 21:38

The larger species and fragility

The two largest species, and especially Ogres that unlike Trolls don't feature high HP regeneration and no insanely good unarmed damage which also allows them to use the largest shields they can find with no sever damage penalties feel like glass cannons, something I'm sure many people notice during most of the early-mid game and quite later too, unless you luck into a respectable foo dragon armour. They kinda make up for that with the greatest HP growth of all species, one could say. That's not really the case as you get hurt a lot more than a normal sized character with a plate armour or a spriggan/kobold with sky-high EV.

Anyway, as most of you know, this comes from the fact that Ogres/Trolls can't wear any metal armour, which makes them frustratingly fragile until they get their beloved GDA or other dragon armour. That also means the skill remains untrained for a huge part of the game. Also, they miss two slots (gloves/boots) that could offer them extra AC and the tiny extra AC of a normal helm versus the caps that they can wear. The last three, while not very noticeable become quite obvious later on at higher armour skill levels so, the high HP Ogre wounds up a very "non-tanky" species. However I'm not gonna waste your time and mine asking for gloves and boots or helms for Ogres and Trolls or metal armour that can be worn by them because I wouldn't like that.

What I'm wandering is if it has been considered before that weapons get bumped down one size category for these two species. Great swords/triple swords/great maces/exec axes which are two handed, would become 1+1/2 handed. That way you could maintain using a shield for the entire game if you'd like to be more defensive while still using a weapon of very respectable base damage, which would overall be a nice boost to Ogres defensively. Still GCs and GSCs would remain two handed, but other weapon options could be available (no doubt, the apts for other weapon types may be a bit too low but still).

While Troolls probably won't appreciate these changes since they enjoy killing things unarmed better than anything, it's a well-deserved alternative to ogres, I believe. Seeing just two backgrounds as recommended for Ogres is quite sad.

Similarly, while in no way as fragile as Ogres, Centaurs and Nagas could get the lower tier 2-handed weapons become 1+1/2 for them, like Halberds, greatswords and the two handed flail that has 130% delay and I can't remember whether it's a dire flail or a spiked flail. Anyway.

Of course in the end it boils down to whether you want the extra 2 base damage of the GSC or the (limited but not non-existant) protection a shield will offer you at the extended endgame + an exec axe or blessed triple sword or whathaveyou.

Am I the only crazy person that thinks this would be a cool change? :P
MuCK;
  Code:
612 | D:1      | Xom revived you
614 | D:1      | Xom revived you
614 | D:1      | Slain by a gnoll
User avatar

Eringya's Employee

Posts: 1782

Joined: Friday, 7th October 2011, 19:24

Location: Athens, Greece

Post Tuesday, 21st February 2012, 22:07

Re: The larger species and fragility

minmay wrote:You also didn't mention one of the biggest things making Og/Tr fragile: terrible EV.


Ah yeah, I assumed everybody knows that pretty much, but you're right, I should have said that anyway.

Concerning the buffing of species that are already inclined on playing melee, Centaurs are excellent rangers as well as Ogres and Trolls that can use Large Stones.
Nagas were pushed toward the melee-lovers side when they received constriction. I'm just of the opinion that at least the two largest species should always be kept melee-inclined anyway (especially Trolls), cause it makes sense. Of course you can always play a hybrid or pure caster role with a Troll or an Ogre, but that should always remain a challenge (no better apts than the ones they both have atm).

Also didn't really mention Trolls and non-unarmed as an option but that's there too, I suppose. I'm just assuming everybody prefers claws.

I assumed there would have been talk about this before 'cause the opposite action has been taken for the small species and someone would probably have thought why larger species don't enjoy this benefit.
Last edited by TehDruid on Tuesday, 21st February 2012, 22:17, edited 3 times in total.
MuCK;
  Code:
612 | D:1      | Xom revived you
614 | D:1      | Xom revived you
614 | D:1      | Slain by a gnoll
User avatar

Crypt Cleanser

Posts: 644

Joined: Wednesday, 14th September 2011, 09:36

Location: <---

Post Tuesday, 21st February 2012, 23:31

Re: The larger species and fragility

I don't see large races as tank, I see them more like fast paced bulldozers. And the lack of AC/EV have some workaround (ring/gear of protection/evasion, rpl missilles, shroud of globuria, dragon armor).
And personaly, I find that these large species profit of the throwing skill far more that some other. Javelins, Large rocks, poison and curare needles.
And also, I love the combo of high HP, low AC and Yred's pain mirror. :)

But still, I agree with you that while they can use any weapon, the only useful ones are the claws, GSC (hydras, but risky if get cursed) or a *good* randart (often for the resists).
I makes almost no sense that a Troll (3.x meters, 400kg of muscle) do the same damage with a Saber than a kobold or a human. Maybe if we add an +0 +3 slaying bonus to all weapons but, as Minmay pointed out, it's only a partial solution.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4055

Joined: Tuesday, 10th January 2012, 19:49

Post Tuesday, 21st February 2012, 23:35

Re: The larger species and fragility

If you want to improve Og/Tr defenses just give them more dex and less str so they get some EV from dodging skill (they end up with way more str than is ever useful anyway). I don't really think they have a problem anyway though; giant spiked clubs and troll claws are pretty much the best weapons in the game anyway and ogres have a ridiculously good aptitude for maces to go with their GSC.
User avatar

Eringya's Employee

Posts: 1782

Joined: Friday, 7th October 2011, 19:24

Location: Athens, Greece

Post Tuesday, 21st February 2012, 23:59

Re: The larger species and fragility

@crate; Yes, DEX allows more EV. You can start as an assassin or something if you want more DEX, or worship Jiyva and weigh your stats towards DEX or use the shuffle card or go Chei for the +15 to all stats or however else you can do to fix that but these are corner cases, If I may. Flavour wise it wouldn't make sense to lower their STR and raise their DEX.

While a GSC is idd the most powerful weapon in the game, it's a long way till you get it "practically and safely usable" and in the meanwhile you're pretty much incredibly fragile since your size class screws your EV growth and you lack any decent AC sources.

The point of this proposal is to make shields more attractive to Ogres (Trolls already use them a lot with unarmed since there's really no problem if you have the correct Shields skill) to use a shield with a whip or other weapon that can be used with a shield without worrying that they'll eventually not want to use a shield because GSC>everything and don't won't to spend the time and exp training Shields up to 9 or 15. It doesn't make sense that a Large species which can wear large shields with barely 15 Shields skills doesn't have much of an incentive to do it. Shields is the only noticeable perk of size class as of now, probably the only one.

Perhaps if constriction were associated with size class of PCs and mobs... Or is that already the case? I mean I know some monsters can't be constricted due to material (jellies) or some other reason but in general size should play a bigger role in unit interactions, I think.
MuCK;
  Code:
612 | D:1      | Xom revived you
614 | D:1      | Xom revived you
614 | D:1      | Slain by a gnoll

Dungeon Master

Posts: 1611

Joined: Thursday, 16th December 2010, 21:54

Post Wednesday, 22nd February 2012, 00:20

Re: The larger species and fragility

TehDruid wrote:Perhaps if constriction were associated with size class of PCs and mobs... Or is that already the case? I mean I know some monsters can't be constricted due to material (jellies) or some other reason but in general size should play a bigger role in unit interactions, I think.

Yes, you can't constrict things that are bigger than you.
User avatar

Eringya's Employee

Posts: 1782

Joined: Friday, 7th October 2011, 19:24

Location: Athens, Greece

Post Wednesday, 22nd February 2012, 00:24

Re: The larger species and fragility

MarvinPA wrote:
TehDruid wrote:Perhaps if constriction were associated with size class of PCs and mobs... Or is that already the case? I mean I know some monsters can't be constricted due to material (jellies) or some other reason but in general size should play a bigger role in unit interactions, I think.

Yes, you can't constrict things that are bigger than you.


I'm fairly certain I could constrict ogres last time I was on a Naga. Aren't Nagas supposed to be large and ogres very large? Or did that use to be the case and it got changed?
MuCK;
  Code:
612 | D:1      | Xom revived you
614 | D:1      | Xom revived you
614 | D:1      | Slain by a gnoll

Vestibule Violator

Posts: 1567

Joined: Friday, 21st January 2011, 22:56

Post Wednesday, 22nd February 2012, 00:25

Re: The larger species and fragility

Player Naga used to constrict as normal size, now they constrict as large. Ogres are large (just like monster nagas). Player nagas are some sort of weird hybrid of large and normal size.
Last edited by Galefury on Wednesday, 22nd February 2012, 00:35, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar

Eringya's Employee

Posts: 1782

Joined: Friday, 7th October 2011, 19:24

Location: Athens, Greece

Post Wednesday, 22nd February 2012, 00:29

Re: The larger species and fragility

I have the shield skill chart in my head and remember that Nagas and Centaurs are considered smaller than Ogres and Trolls, Spriggans and Felids are smaller than Halflings and Kobolds, which are smaller than all human-sized species, which are smaller than Naga and Centaur. I always thought there were 5 size classes.
MuCK;
  Code:
612 | D:1      | Xom revived you
614 | D:1      | Xom revived you
614 | D:1      | Slain by a gnoll

Dungeon Master

Posts: 1611

Joined: Thursday, 16th December 2010, 21:54

Post Wednesday, 22nd February 2012, 02:10

Re: The larger species and fragility

Nagas, Centaurs, Ogres and Trolls are all large. Nagas and Centaurs have medium-sized torsos, though, which is why they can use bucklers and wear metal armour and so on. Possibly constriction uses torso size rather than body size, I don't know.

For this message the author Kate has received thanks:
TehDruid

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4055

Joined: Tuesday, 10th January 2012, 19:49

Post Wednesday, 22nd February 2012, 02:33

Re: The larger species and fragility

TehDruid wrote:While a GSC is idd the most powerful weapon in the game, it's a long way till you get it "practically and safely usable" and in the meanwhile you're pretty much incredibly fragile since your size class screws your EV growth and you lack any decent AC sources.

This is wrong unless you are doing something silly like training skills that are not maces. You should have giant clubs usable by lair no problem.
User avatar

Dungeon Master

Posts: 4031

Joined: Thursday, 16th December 2010, 20:37

Location: France

Post Wednesday, 22nd February 2012, 13:06

Re: The larger species and fragility

minmay wrote:It's been suggested before, yes (there was even a patch).

Yes, I remember reviewing this patch. I like the idea, but I wasn't too happy about the implementation. This part of the code is a bit messy and could use some rewriting. I think each time somebody tried to, we ended up wondering about what to do with double handed (unimplemented feature for staves)? Probably removing it would help us move forward :)

minmay wrote:It doesn't really change much in gameplay; the best one-handed weapons would just be the likes of great maces instead of demon whips (and giant clubs would have to be buffed quite a bit to get people to use them at all).

Well, weapon stats are not set in stones. I don't think there's ever been a stone soup version without at least a couple of weapon stat adjustments. I think this change would be a good first set toward increasing variety among Ogres, but some weapon tweaking could help too.

minmay wrote:I suppose it would be a good start on making unarmed not a no-brainer on trolls...on the other hand, buffing melee combat on races that already prefer it to ranged is counterproductive.

The best way to pull Trolls out of the UC no-brainer would be to nerf UC. And I think this nerf is long overdue. I think the linearity between skill and base damage is great, so how about just reducing it by 20%?
  Code:
base damage = skill_rdiv(SK_UNARMED_COMBAT, 4, 5)
<+Grunt> You dereference an invalid pointer! Ouch! That really hurt! The game dies...

For this message the author galehar has received thanks:
TehDruid

Vestibule Violator

Posts: 1500

Joined: Monday, 3rd January 2011, 17:47

Post Wednesday, 22nd February 2012, 15:01

Re: The larger species and fragility

I don't know if Trolls need as much of a buff as do Ogres. While the lightning fast metabolism has it's down sides, the speed at which they heal does make up for the damage they take.

What about adding some built in GDR for Ogres? I'm not talking about CPM levels or anything, but perhaps leather armor levels or maybe ? This should help keep them alive into the mid-game when they can get some sort of dragon armor.

Vestibule Violator

Posts: 1500

Joined: Monday, 3rd January 2011, 17:47

Post Wednesday, 22nd February 2012, 15:03

Re: The larger species and fragility

galehar wrote:
minmay wrote:I suppose it would be a good start on making unarmed not a no-brainer on trolls...on the other hand, buffing melee combat on races that already prefer it to ranged is counterproductive.

The best way to pull Trolls out of the UC no-brainer would be to nerf UC. And I think this nerf is long overdue. I think the linearity between skill and base damage is great, so how about just reducing it by 20%?
  Code:
base damage = skill_rdiv(SK_UNARMED_COMBAT, 4, 5)


While unarmed at 25 is very impressive, is it really so much different than an executioner's axe which might have branding and/or other randart properties?

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 2996

Joined: Tuesday, 28th June 2011, 20:41

Location: Berlin

Post Wednesday, 22nd February 2012, 15:10

Re: The larger species and fragility

While unarmed at 25 is very impressive, is it really so much different than an executioner's axe which might have branding and/or other randart properties?


Unarmed at 25 on a troll is 6 (claws) + 3 + 25 = 34 base damage. Executioner's axe has 20, brand and enchantment. Regarding damage they will be comparable, but not only is UC probably stronger (depending on the brand of the axe) but also allows shield usage.
User avatar

Vaults Vanquisher

Posts: 451

Joined: Sunday, 11th September 2011, 00:07

Post Wednesday, 22nd February 2012, 15:14

Re: The larger species and fragility

cerebovssquire wrote:
While unarmed at 25 is very impressive, is it really so much different than an executioner's axe which might have branding and/or other randart properties?


Unarmed at 25 on a troll is 6 (claws) + 3 + 25 = 34 base damage. Executioner's axe has 20, brand and enchantment. Regarding damage they will be comparable, but not only is UC probably stronger (depending on the brand of the axe) but also allows shield usage.


UC is significantly faster than a exec axe at their respective mindelays (5 vs 7). Unless something changed dramatically while I was away.
Your warning level: [CLASSIFIED]

Vestibule Violator

Posts: 1500

Joined: Monday, 3rd January 2011, 17:47

Post Wednesday, 22nd February 2012, 15:37

Re: The larger species and fragility

cerebovssquire wrote:
While unarmed at 25 is very impressive, is it really so much different than an executioner's axe which might have branding and/or other randart properties?


Unarmed at 25 on a troll is 6 (claws) + 3 + 25 = 34 base damage. Executioner's axe has 20, brand and enchantment. Regarding damage they will be comparable, but not only is UC probably stronger (depending on the brand of the axe) but also allows shield usage.

Right, I forgot to include the extra 6 damage from claws. I'll give you a wash on the shield since you're just as likely to have something like rF or +Blink on either as far as I know and shields become increasingly less useful as you get deeper in the dungeon (torment, hellfire).
User avatar

Barkeep

Posts: 4434

Joined: Tuesday, 11th January 2011, 12:28

Post Wednesday, 22nd February 2012, 17:05

Re: The larger species and fragility

minmay wrote:GSCs are great from the moment you find one.

... and unlike all the other top-tier weapons, you'll find GSCs as soon as you start running into ogres.
I am not a very good player. My mouth is a foul pit of LIES. KNOW THIS.

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1221

Joined: Thursday, 10th March 2011, 19:45

Post Wednesday, 22nd February 2012, 17:20

Re: The larger species and fragility

Many of the species that are likely to be fighting unarmed will also eventually be casting Blade Hands (with the exception of TrBe and ghouls) which further increases the damage.

On the other hand, unarmed never gets brands, which means, (AFAIK) even with Blade Hands it isn't really competitive with a top-tier weapon of holy wrath in the post endgame where nearly all monsters are demons or undead.

Vestibule Violator

Posts: 1500

Joined: Monday, 3rd January 2011, 17:47

Post Wednesday, 22nd February 2012, 17:45

Re: The larger species and fragility

Jeremiah wrote:Many of the species that are likely to be fighting unarmed will also eventually be casting Blade Hands (with the exception of TrBe and ghouls) which further increases the damage.

On the other hand, unarmed never gets brands, which means, (AFAIK) even with Blade Hands it isn't really competitive with a top-tier weapon of holy wrath in the post endgame where nearly all monsters are demons or undead.

Which then requires medium levels of Tmut and Spellcasting or high levels of one. A not insignificant investment. And blade hands makes your spells more likely to fail which a foo of holy wrath doesn't.

There are so many other things in the game that are almost fundamentally broken, cf controlled blink, that I find it hard to believe that anyone wants to focus on UC at all.

Snake Sneak

Posts: 129

Joined: Saturday, 27th August 2011, 22:00

Post Sunday, 26th February 2012, 08:30

Re: The larger species and fragility

I don't get it, why can't we have glass cannon races, or races that are simply harder to win with and require different play styles ("challenge species")? Does every species have to be a joke on the roguelike genre like minotaur fighters afk tabbing through the game for you guys to be happy? This isn't world of warcraft, no one is losing because they chose a "bad race" as a newbie and are now "stuck" due to time invested.


rebthor wrote:
Jeremiah wrote:Many of the species that are likely to be fighting unarmed will also eventually be casting Blade Hands (with the exception of TrBe and ghouls) which further increases the damage.

On the other hand, unarmed never gets brands, which means, (AFAIK) even with Blade Hands it isn't really competitive with a top-tier weapon of holy wrath in the post endgame where nearly all monsters are demons or undead.

Which then requires medium levels of Tmut and Spellcasting or high levels of one. A not insignificant investment. And blade hands makes your spells more likely to fail which a foo of holy wrath doesn't.

There are so many other things in the game that are almost fundamentally broken, cf controlled blink, that I find it hard to believe that anyone wants to focus on UC at all.

This game isn't multiplayer or competitive. Of course there are people who are looking to play suboptimal combinations for flavor or challenge reasons.

btw don't get me wrong, I'm not saying just leave a broken mechanic etc that way just for the hell of it, but when a certain race offers a unique gameplay opportunity (even if they aren't as powerful as another race) you don't have to "bring them up to snuff". Just go play the minotaur or whatever you wish Ogres or Trolls were.
User avatar

Pandemonium Purger

Posts: 1319

Joined: Monday, 24th October 2011, 06:13

Post Sunday, 26th February 2012, 14:24

Re: The larger species and fragility

I'd like to use a simple argument in favor of Ogres & Trolls using larger weapons in one hand: two-headed ogres can wield two two-handed clubs.
seattle washington. friends for life. mods hate on me and devs ignore my posts. creater of exoelfs and dc:pt
User avatar

Vestibule Violator

Posts: 1509

Joined: Wednesday, 21st September 2011, 01:10

Location: St. John's, NL, Canada

Post Monday, 27th February 2012, 00:25

Re: The larger species and fragility

perhaps the big races could wear hides in the cloak slot (since you wouldn't be able to enchant them, this would be for base AC / resists only)
Won all race/bg, unwon (online): Nem* Hep Uka
Favourites: 15-rune Trog, OgNe/OgIE/OgSu (usually Ash), Ds, Ru, SpEn, Ce of Chei, Qaz
User avatar

Dungeon Master

Posts: 4031

Joined: Thursday, 16th December 2010, 20:37

Location: France

Post Wednesday, 29th February 2012, 11:22

Re: The larger species and fragility

Here is the submitted patch. There is some balance discussion there too. It's old, but probably still up-to-date since there hasn't been much change on shields and 2 handers.
<+Grunt> You dereference an invalid pointer! Ouch! That really hurt! The game dies...
User avatar

Vaults Vanquisher

Posts: 451

Joined: Sunday, 11th September 2011, 00:07

Post Thursday, 1st March 2012, 19:33

Re: The larger species and fragility

Your warning level: [CLASSIFIED]

Vestibule Violator

Posts: 1500

Joined: Monday, 3rd January 2011, 17:47

Post Thursday, 1st March 2012, 20:54

Re: The larger species and fragility

ebarrett wrote:http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/ebarrett/morgue-ebarrett-20120301-041150.txt

boy look at all that fragility

You're comparing an Og at the end of the game who also managed to luck into the ring of shaolin (+8 EV) and randarts that added +6 DEX, along with GDA (granted many characters will have this around end game) to a proposal to help mid-game Og, who have a significant lack of options on AC and generally terrible EV on top of that.

For this message the author rebthor has received thanks:
TehDruid

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4055

Joined: Tuesday, 10th January 2012, 19:49

Post Thursday, 1st March 2012, 22:24

Re: The larger species and fragility

Midgame Og doesn't need defenses; its defenses are hitting things with a giant spiked club.
User avatar

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1189

Joined: Friday, 28th January 2011, 21:45

Post Thursday, 1st March 2012, 22:30

Re: The larger species and fragility

Midgame Ogs are great at bashing things with clubs, until they take a dozen yaktaur bolts to the knees.
The best strategy most frequently overlooked by new players for surviving: not starting a fight to begin with.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4055

Joined: Tuesday, 10th January 2012, 19:49

Post Thursday, 1st March 2012, 23:13

Re: The larger species and fragility

TwilightPhoenix wrote:Midgame Ogs are great at bashing things with clubs, until they take a dozen yaktaur bolts to the knees.

Yaktaurs are speed 10, back them up to a corner.

Halls Hopper

Posts: 79

Joined: Thursday, 7th July 2011, 14:54

Post Thursday, 1st March 2012, 23:14

Re: The larger species and fragility

minmay wrote:Does anyone have an argument for ogres wielding two-handed weapons as one-handed that isn't also one for dual-wielding?


Yes, restict shortblades as unweildable by their giant meat mitts and enable 2 handers as 1 handed except GC and GSC which are 2 handed for large species and unweildable by anything else.

I realize you lose out on your stabbing bonuses, but I don't see that as a problem.

Slime Squisher

Posts: 369

Joined: Saturday, 3rd September 2011, 18:22

Post Saturday, 3rd March 2012, 17:44

Re: The larger species and fragility

Maybe make it so they can stab with one handed sharp weapons like falchions and other one handed swords. They would make an ogre stalker kind of interesting maybe.

Blades Runner

Posts: 554

Joined: Tuesday, 25th January 2011, 14:24

Post Sunday, 4th March 2012, 03:23

Re: The larger species and fragility

Note that anyone can stab with long blades such as falchions already. Long blades even have a (slightly) better than average stabbing bonus. You can also stab with two-handed weapons.

Perhaps what you meant was to increase the bonus so that 1 handed long blades received similar bonuses to those that short blades receive, when used by Large creatures?

Mines Malingerer

Posts: 32

Joined: Friday, 25th March 2011, 12:37

Post Sunday, 4th March 2012, 12:33

Re: The larger species and fragility

crate wrote:
TwilightPhoenix wrote:Midgame Ogs are great at bashing things with clubs, until they take a dozen yaktaur bolts to the knees.

Yaktaurs are speed 10, back them up to a corner.

Yeesh, how many characters have I ascended and I still thought yaktaurs were faster than average? I suppose there's such a thing as being too cautious...
User avatar

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1189

Joined: Friday, 28th January 2011, 21:45

Post Monday, 5th March 2012, 17:05

Re: The larger species and fragility

crate wrote:
TwilightPhoenix wrote:Midgame Ogs are great at bashing things with clubs, until they take a dozen yaktaur bolts to the knees.

Yaktaurs are speed 10, back them up to a corner.


I used to back Yaktaurs into corners, until a meme flew over your head.


But yeah, in all seriousness, having a great powerhouse offense doesn't mean a thing in Crawl if you lack defenses.
The best strategy most frequently overlooked by new players for surviving: not starting a fight to begin with.
User avatar

Vaults Vanquisher

Posts: 451

Joined: Sunday, 11th September 2011, 00:07

Post Monday, 5th March 2012, 19:41

Re: The larger species and fragility

rebthor wrote:You're comparing an Og at the end of the game who also managed to luck into the ring of shaolin (+8 EV) and randarts that added +6 DEX, along with GDA (granted many characters will have this around end game) to a proposal to help mid-game Og, who have a significant lack of options on AC and generally terrible EV on top of that.

That ogre stomped things just fine during his lousy AC/EV days, there's not much that can last long enough to hurt an ogre that's swinging a decent GSC around. Ogres are an easy race, massive HP + massive damage is a severely underrated combo.


TwilightPhoenix wrote:But yeah, in all seriousness, having a great powerhouse offense doesn't mean a thing in Crawl if you lack defenses.

It means a lot, you just can't rush enemies blindly. Which some people love to do.
Your warning level: [CLASSIFIED]
User avatar

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1189

Joined: Friday, 28th January 2011, 21:45

Post Monday, 5th March 2012, 22:53

Re: The larger species and fragility

It's not a matter of blindly rushing. In any situation an Ogre is getting attacked, it will be taking more damage than just about every other race. For reference, using a level 1 monk, a human has 13 EV, a kobold 16, a spriggan 18, and an ogre 11. As they level, most of the non-large species will out pace the Ogre in EV because of inherent Dex gains and unless the Ogre is a berserker, they'll be wanting to invest in Intelligence so they can cast spells rather than Dex for EV. And even then, the Berserker will be picking up some Int so they don't suddenly stat-death down the road..

In terms of AC, the Ogre just flat out sucks. It gets Tough Skin 1, which translates in a bonus of... 1 AC. So, enchanted items aside, they can get a whopping 4 AC once they fill their armor slots until they can find a piece of Troll or a piece of dragon (highly unlikely until you're going for runes). In contrast, Trolls get not only regeneration, but also 3 extra starting AC, meaning their fellow big species is ahead of them at all times. Centaurs can get 11 AC while still wearing a robe and can reach 15 with plate. Nagas with plate and barding can reach 19 AC. Humans in plate can reach 14 AC. Spriggans can actually keep pace inc AC with an Ogre and can even have 32 EV while wearing a GDA (dex 26, dodging 27), where as an Ogre would only have 23. Draconians can't wear body armor, but they frequently get upgraded Scales that gives them free AC, allowing them to have very respectable AC while running around naked. And they can still fill all of their body slots. All of that was checked with armor at 0. At 27, we got: Ogre 45, human 62, spriggan 44, naga 72, centaur: 66.

Now if we start enchanting armor, it gets worse. With fully enchanted gear in GDA, an Ogre can hit 30 AC. Not too shabby, but that's end game stuff. A human can reach 40 AC. A Naga can reach 46. And all have higher GDA because of Crystal Plate. Once you start adding AC bonuses from randarts, jewels, and such, it can all go higher and the other species have more slots to work with. But that's mostly theoretical and extended end-game stuff, not typical play.

But yeah, basically, the Ogre has lower EV and much lower AC potential than virtually every other species. They're bulkier than Octopodes in terms of AC, though they can get a ton of rings with AC on them (theoretically hitting about 41 AC with 8 +5 rings, but no GDA) Consequently, when they get attacked, they'll get hit more often and harder. Especially when you're running around with your impressively strong Giant Spiked Club and therefore don't have a shield (the one thing Ogres do excel in, but can't use their club with it). You can only smack one thing a swing, so unless you're in a corridor, which you should try to do but isn't always possible, you'll be taking multiple attacks and, thus, getting hit more frequently and harder than a large shield toting Troll who's laughing at your Ogre with his claws or any other species packing a bunch of EV and/or AC. Now of course your Ogre can equip a large shield, but then you lose out on your impressive club and are stuck using a one-hander, losing out on that powerhouse offense (which is why the Troll is laughing, he can have both). Sure there's demon whips and stuff, but smaller species can use those too while being better protected to boot.
The best strategy most frequently overlooked by new players for surviving: not starting a fight to begin with.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4055

Joined: Tuesday, 10th January 2012, 19:49

Post Monday, 5th March 2012, 23:04

Re: The larger species and fragility

Fighting in a coridoor or similarly only fighting one enemy at a time is possible most of the time. Ogres are not bad at all. Giant spiked clubs are extremely good. Get better at melee combat, it's not easy. They take more damage than most species, but they have more HP than most species so that's completely fine.
User avatar

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1189

Joined: Friday, 28th January 2011, 21:45

Post Monday, 5th March 2012, 23:57

Re: The larger species and fragility

I play just fine at melee, thank you. And for most of the game they don't have that much more HP: 327 v 252 at XL 27, Fighting 27 compared to a human with the same XL and Fighting level. A difference of 75 at top level and max Fighting. At XL/Fighting 13, they have 136 vs 105. And that 30 HP is going to equal about one hit when your character has poor AC and can't avoid stuff nearly as well. Using wiz mode wearing plate mail on the human, the human was able to consistently survive longer being munched by a 7-headed hydra.

An Executioner's Axe has base damage 20, a Triple Sword 19, and a Bardiche at 18, putting them not far behind the GSC, though the GSC has the advantage of shorter delay and being more common, but the others can be used by anyone.
The best strategy most frequently overlooked by new players for surviving: not starting a fight to begin with.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4055

Joined: Tuesday, 10th January 2012, 19:49

Post Tuesday, 6th March 2012, 00:26

Re: The larger species and fragility

7 headed hydra is a horrendous test, they specifically favor high-AC and GDR, more than any other enemy in the game by a large amount. Orb guardian or stone giant or ogres are better tests.

The big thing with Og is that because of your +3 maces apt and because of how common GSC's are you will be using a GSC at mindelay before the end of lair (compare to probably mid-Vaults for a min delay exec axe, assuming you have found one). Once you've finished up lair the game is not terribly hard anyway.

Blades Runner

Posts: 546

Joined: Monday, 20th December 2010, 14:25

Post Tuesday, 6th March 2012, 04:38

Re: The larger species and fragility

galehar wrote:The best way to pull Trolls out of the UC no-brainer would be to nerf UC. And I think this nerf is long overdue. I think the linearity between skill and base damage is great, so how about just reducing it by 20%?
  Code:
base damage = skill_rdiv(SK_UNARMED_COMBAT, 4, 5)


Before nerfing UC, consider that UC is only extra strong for clawed races and in concert with forms. I believe there has been talk in other places about reducing the power of certain forms.

BTW, comparing UC to weapons is difficult. The choice really is the skill points for UC27 and shields 15+ versus the skills points for, eg, Axes 27 or for LB ~16 and shields 15+. That is, for most races the choices are one-hander with shield, two-hander without shield, or UC with shield. UC with shield requires the highest XP investment to max out. (This may be part of why transmuters seem strong but have a low win percentage.)
User avatar

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1189

Joined: Friday, 28th January 2011, 21:45

Post Tuesday, 6th March 2012, 05:09

Re: The larger species and fragility

Bleh, knew I forgot something, was close to having to go to work when I wrote that and couldn't do everything. But yeah, checked Nagas and Centaurs, the two tankiest species with armor and okayish EV. Nagas can still hit a whopping 302 HP on top of that potential 72 AC (yet difficult to attain) and Centaurs aren't very far behind with 277 HP. So yeah...

Anyway, Orb Guardian. Went and tested that too. The level 13 characters both died about instantly, so I bumped them up to xl 27, fighting 27, armour 27, and dodging 27, which is probably unlikely since nobody trains both dodging and armour, but whatever. Then I shoved the human in full, unenchanted armor with CPM and the Ogre all the armor it can take with GDA, so assuming some good luck with both of them. No shields on either. Against one Orb Guardian, the human lasts, on a rough average, 45-60 turns standing there. The Ogre lasted about 30-40. There was a pretty big difference in the message spam, the human often got "The Orb Guardian hits you but does no damage" whereas the Ogre's health steadily went down. Also tested a Spriggan for kicks to test evasion against the OG. Wearing Pearl Dragon Armour (which is pretty unlikely to find right now), the Spriggan also lasted about 30-40 turns. Many misses, but the hits that did make it through splattered the Spriggan's small health.

It's not a realistic scenario, of course, but keep in mind it's just a straight number's check. All three of those characters would need more than just an Orb Guardian to down them anytime soon.

I didn't test offense since there's far too many options there. The human could have had a Demon Trident and, consequently, a shield, which would have had a big impact on the survival test. The Ogre could have heavily hybridized and have Firestorm. The Spriggan could have stabbed the Orb Guardian while it's asleep. Far too many variables there. But offense isn't really the point of this topic either.

In any case, the Ogre is clearly in a glass-cannon role where other species in it's size class doesn't have to do it (which is the point of this topic and it's something I haven't been helping on keeping focused with). Nagas and Centaurs can layer up armor and can pretty much guarantee Barding with Oka if needed (him and Trog will also pretty much guarantee your uber weapon for your weapon class too if you really have to have a triple executioner's bardiche). Trolls can use their deadliest weapon with a shield and have regeneration to make up for their AC and EV issues. Other species either quickly shoot up in EV, such as Felids or Spriggans, or can layer up on armor, such as Hill Orcs and Minotaurs. The GSC and large rock, while both strong, aren't so much that it fully compensates for their vulnerability when other species can easily come close enough to the damage output of either while having far better defenses. Especially once magic comes into the equation, which most species are better at.
The best strategy most frequently overlooked by new players for surviving: not starting a fight to begin with.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4055

Joined: Tuesday, 10th January 2012, 19:49

Post Tuesday, 6th March 2012, 05:18

Re: The larger species and fragility

Yeah I just don't agree at all that a gsc with +3 apt (and +3 fighting to go with it) doesn't make up for being big and slightly more fragile than other species.
User avatar

Dungeon Master

Posts: 4031

Joined: Thursday, 16th December 2010, 20:37

Location: France

Post Tuesday, 6th March 2012, 09:19

Re: The larger species and fragility

TwilightPhoenix wrote:And for most of the game they don't have that much more HP: 327 v 252 at XL 27, Fighting 27 compared to a human with the same XL and Fighting level. A difference of 75 at top level and max Fighting. At XL/Fighting 13, they have 136 vs 105.

You failed to consider that with their +3 fighting aptitude, they will have a much higher skill level than a human for most of the game.
Anyway, I don't think comparing how many turns a character can survive a certain monster at max skills mean anything.
If you're into synthetic tests, you should seriously consider taking a look at fsim. It's mostly undocumented but actually quite simple to use:
Set the fsim_mons option to the monster type you want to test with. Equip your character and type &f to test player's attack. For defense, use &^f. If you need more info about fsim, open a thread in the "Interface & Software" forum or look at the source.
<+Grunt> You dereference an invalid pointer! Ouch! That really hurt! The game dies...

Snake Sneak

Posts: 129

Joined: Saturday, 27th August 2011, 22:00

Post Tuesday, 6th March 2012, 14:05

Re: The larger species and fragility

@TwilightPhoenix
I don't have access to overall crawl stats but Ogres probably ARE harder to get through the game than any other species. But at the same time they actually have a reason to use different playstyles and in some cases they have playstyles open to them which are totally different from other species of the same background (thanks to GCs and GSCs). The point is that its OK with me, because quite frankly the game would be too easy otherwise.

I mean really, what IS your goal here? Do you want every species to have the exact same survivability and characteristics? What in the hell is going on here? Did you even think about game design at all? It doesn't seem like it, because you went through all that work on synthetic testing without even considering a +3 difference in aptitudes. Take a step back and think about what your purpose is here, it will enhance the discussion for everyone.
User avatar

Dungeon Master

Posts: 4031

Joined: Thursday, 16th December 2010, 20:37

Location: France

Post Tuesday, 6th March 2012, 14:49

Re: The larger species and fragility

Night2o1 wrote:@TwilightPhoenix
I don't have access to overall crawl stats but Ogres probably ARE harder to get through the game than any other species.

You can't really assess the difficulty of a species from stats, because easy species are played a lot by newbies so the end up having the worst stats of them all. But any good player will tell you that Ogres are definitely not the hardest one. Players who find they them hard to play are probably just not playing them well. they don't play like Trolls at all for example.
<+Grunt> You dereference an invalid pointer! Ouch! That really hurt! The game dies...
User avatar

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1189

Joined: Friday, 28th January 2011, 21:45

Post Tuesday, 6th March 2012, 22:49

Re: The larger species and fragility

Night2o1 wrote:@TwilightPhoenix
I mean really, what IS your goal here? Do you want every species to have the exact same survivability and characteristics? What in the hell is going on here? Did you even think about game design at all? It doesn't seem like it, because you went through all that work on synthetic testing without even considering a +3 difference in aptitudes. Take a step back and think about what your purpose is here, it will enhance the discussion for everyone.



Yeah, sorry, my point probably got buried in all the numbers and what not.

So, my point being, Ogres are very glass cannony through most of the game and the difference in survivability is huge. They narrow that gap a lot if they get their hands on GDA, assuming they're not trying to cast spells (building for heavy armored casting aside, but there's much better species for doing that). But for the most part an Ogre suffers from lower EV than most species due to all of their natural stat growth going into strength and most players are going to likely be investing the points in dexterity and also suffer from low AC since the best armor they'll have for most of the game is a robe, an animal skin, or troll leather with Steam, Mottled, and Swamp Dragon armors being borderline rare (with the latter nearly unattainable if you don't get Swamp). Going towards the end-game when they get shots at Fire, Ice, Storm, and Gold Dragon armors they can narrow the gap, but that's pretty late if you're not doing extended. Additionally, Ogres biggest defensive point other than their high HP, which only Trolls match, is their ease of using normal and large shields. They cannot use this with their GSCs though, so they basically have to choose between taking their best offensive option or their best defensive option. It makes for an interesting choice, though it's worth noting most other species make the same choice, many of them have other alternatives to a shield (Octopodes are in a similar boat, barring chancing into a tons of AC rings, though considering their squishiness they're not probably spending much time in melee anyway).

Basically, I'm confirming the initial points brought up in the original post about them being glass cannons. Making them less fragile for most of the game would make Ogres feel more... well... Ogreish, but if we want to stick them in the glass cannon role, they could use a bit more oomph there. Trolls do just fine (arguably too fine), but Ogres are paced very closely in offensive terms by other species in terms of weapons (for example, HO and Mi both have a Fighting Apt of 2 with HO having 2 in Axes and Mi 2 in all but Short Blades and UC), especially since branded and artefact not-quite-top-end weapons in the classes are far more common than an artefact GSC, which otherwise always comes totally mundane, though probably off sets their common and early availability.

So what oomph exactly? Not fully sure, though I don't know about the one-handed thing. It'd make sense, but it'd lessen the "pick offense or defense" thing Ogres have going on now.
The best strategy most frequently overlooked by new players for surviving: not starting a fight to begin with.
Next

Return to Game Design Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests

Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by ST Software for PTF.