Revisions to boring or redundant monsters

[roctavian]

minmay originally posted a thread about the overabundance of redundant monsters in Crawl. That thread ended up focusing on the question of "should we cut lots of monsters or not?" which I don't intend to be the point of this thread; this should be more of an idea farm. Please, let's not wring our hands too much about idea bloat, or spit Mountain Dew all over our keyboards when we have to tell someone an idea absolutely shouldn't be in the game. The Tavern is a place where we wish bad ideas could go to die, but too frequently it is a place where mediocre ideas go to be posted again and again. Occasionally there are good points, and I think organized discussion might help bring that about.

A concern dpeg had in the previous thread was that a blanket discussion of all problematic monsters wouldn't lead anywhere, and because of that I want to facilitate this thread to focus on smaller groups of monsters at a time. We'll look through the list in minmay's thread, and I strongly suggest that anyone posting in this thread look there first. Additionally, there are pages on the dev wiki for existing monsters and new ones to consider or use as inspiration.

For now, let's talk about monsters in the early game. I'm grouping similar monsters or monsters with similar issues together, thus:

CURRENT DISCUSSION

Ooze
I should have included this enemy in the previous batch. I feel like oozes could be used to introduce more game concepts early on. They do as much damage as a giant gecko but move slowly, the extra HP isn't enough to make them threatening. What if they worked like slime creatures in reverse, splitting when hit? Each part gets half the HP of the original, and it doesn't split when in corridors (the player has enough of an advantage in corridors anyway). This doesn't make oozes into any serious threat and I don't think they need to be one, but it could be some good gameplay flavor.
Giant Slug, Agate Snail, Elephant Slug
The problem with slow melee monsters has been discussed before -- their stats are irrelevant if you can just walk away. Snails are somewhat alright, what with retreating into their shells, but the other two are rarely interesting except as corridor plugs. I liked a previous suggestion that these creatures might leave slime trails that slow the player/other creatures -- maybe they can be generated awake and can leave Leda's Liquifaction-style slime that sticks around for quite a while.
Hippogriff, Griffon
Mentally I tend to classify hippogriffs as easy meals. Griffons can be threatening if they show up after you've already been weakened in another fight -- but I think the big problem is that they're just more melee threats. I'm not sure what can be done, considering how the mythological counterparts to these monsters don't do anything besides fly around. Perhaps they can have some kind of screeching ability that induces fear? I'm grasping at straws.
Crocodile, Baby Alligator, Alligator
Someone mentioned in the previous thread that baby alligators exist because alligator packs would be too dangerous at the depths they tend to show up at. I like the burst of speed alligators get, and I think they're the best monsters out of this set, but I really have no ideas for the other two.

PRIOR DISCUSSIONS

Grey Rat, Green Rat, Porcupine
are small popcorn monsters that might be okay, but they come up occasionally as boring. I liked the idea of green rats all swarming into the same square from previous discussions, but I had a thought the other day -- what if they moved slightly faster (speed 11 or 12) so that they could surround players more frequently, and left a poison cloud on the space they die on for 1-2 turns? It wouldn't be an extreme threat but it could influence player positioning a lot.

I believe that porcupines already reflect a bit of damage, but I'm hazy on what would be appropriate for them.

post-discussion: I think most people who've weighed in on this discussion agree that porcupine damage reflection could be buffed (and perhaps their damage nerfed to compensate, but that's probably unnecessary). There is virtually no consensus on what to do to rats, but I do think it is important to consider how they show up with summon small mammal.

Giant Mite, Giant Centipede
are virtually never threats or even interesting. Adders show up around the same time as giant mites and are more dangerous. Centipedes have never seemed dangerous at all. They might be more memorable and dangerous if they came in packs?

post-discussion: These have a variety of suggestions without much consensus. I don't really think that multi-tile monsters are feasible despite suggesting it myself; I do like the idea of giant centipedes that split up into smaller ones when killed, but that is just my own feeling. I suggested sickness instead of poison for mites, and I still kind of favor this idea despite the fact that sickness isn't threatening, simply because it introduces a concept earlier in the game than Lair.

Hound, War Dog, Wolf
are basically the same thing. I do think that hounds are okay, and war dogs are somewhat okay as they are dangerous and come in packs, but otherwise they're just letters that run into you and that could be better.

post-discussion: Wolves and war dogs can either be merged, or war dogs can be kept as a unique monster that shows up with Grum. Hounds and wolves (and possibly war dogs) could be given some kind of tracking bonus. Possibly this could work with blood -- I like the idea of it but I think it may be hard to turn it into something clear and meaningful.

Giant Newt, Gecko, Iguana
I don't think these monsters need to be changed at all, but my instinct tells me that someone will bring up iguanas and so I might as well cut them off. 99% of the time an iguana isn't a threat, but they do just enough damage to harm careless/overconfident players, and so I think they're fine as boring monsters can be.

post-discussion: nothing important.

Please, let's hear your thoughts! After a while I will edit the OP and make a post later in the thread to switch to another set of monsters, and at some point I'll throw a page up on the dev wiki.

[Roderic]

Iguanas are early menaces in dungeon I think, they do quite damage (more than you expect for a hypothetical herbivore lizard). I tend to avoid them.

hounds and such, do you refer to remove them completely or just some of them? They are fast, come in packs (the last two) and can see invisible. Maybe a good improvement should be the ability to make you bleed by biting hard and track you smelling your blood trail (or equivalently, improve the track AI of monsters, giving the canids the best one to track you). Perhaps an easy solution is "to cheat" them giving a hint your position sometimes whenever they lost you. It would fit them with a role of hunters

I suggested to give mites the ability to stack as well as to bees to make swarm-like monsters, in a similar way the green J's do. They would be less threatening than bees and cannot fly so they are perfectly made as early dungeon nuisances.

[XuaXua]

Snakes out the yin yang in this game.

[dpeg]

I second conflating war dogs and wolves into one monster (which I'd prefer to call "wolf").

[Tiber]

Porcupines already have a gimmick; it's just that they're way too weak by the time you see them for it to matter. Buffing them and/or making them appear earlier is called for.

There are a couple of problems with the green rat cloud idea. For one thing, they have no poison resistance, and won't go through clouds, so all the cloud would do is give you a breather. Second, I'm pretty stationary when fighting them, so I'd almost never have a reason to walk into it. So here's an idea: Give them poison resistance, and a foul stench-like ability, releasing poison clouds in squares next to them when attacked. Hmm, maybe this might be a bit much for green rats, but a monster with a foul-stench-like ability might be interesting.

Centipedes live and die by their strong poison. If they can actually poison you, it's bad, but they die too easily for it to matter usually. Putting them in packs seems a bit like a lazy solution, but that one spider's nest (portal) that featured them was pretty nasty.

I second letting wolves replace war dogs. It makes more sense to see wolves in lair, yet you rarely do unless there's an ice cave. Let Grum keep his war dogs though. Also, to make them more interesting, make them true pack hunters. Make it so they can't be split from the pack, and won't attack you alone. If you defeat the rest of the pack, the last one runs away.

Iguanas are kind of like ogres; the first one you meet is a major threat. A level or two later, they're nothing.

Lastly, I'd like to re-suggest an idea I had a while back that people seemed to like, but nothing ever happened with it. For either killer bees, bumblebees, or ants, give them a "pheromone cloud" ability. On death, they leave this cloud this cloud behind, and it attracts any monster of the same type in the area to that spot. Multiple clouds in the same area can get the attention of monsters even farther away. The cloud itself is harmless, but if you walk in it they'll know your exact position until it wears off.

[roctavian]

In general I'm not suggesting any removals -- it's been said before that cutting is much easier than re-working and improving, but not always better. In specific, though, I do think cutting war dogs is a good idea.

I agree with the criticisms of my green rat/centipede ideas; it's particularly hard for me to think of something to make centipedes interesting. Spiders already drop from the ceiling, and that's all I can think of, really. I figure that multi-tile monsters are still out of the question in Crawl, but centipedes would be a good candidate for it thematically.

XuaXua: We definitely do have a ton of snakes, but they all tend to be valid threats when and where they show up. I left out ball pythons and adders deliberately, because I think they do a nice job where they're at in early D. We'll get to discussing the other snakes later, though.

[Roderic]

snakes either constrict or poison you:
constriction: ball python -> anaconda
poison: adder->water mocasin (swim)->black mamba->sea snake(swim)

I do not see them redundant at all.
Some snake should be able to see inv as vipers or rattlesnakes do (do they in crawl?) if some addition is wanted.

[TwilightPhoenix]

I still like the rat swarm idea with the rats. Maybe I'm a bit biased since I originally suggested it I don't know how long ago (I think there was a topic before the last one I brought it up in), but it still seems like a good idea. Grey rats spawn a wee bit late for them to usually be a threat, but they can be dangerous in early sewers for some characters. Porcupines need spine reflection, if they don't already have it, and enough HP to make it mean something.

I don't know what to do about Mites and Centipedes. Mites have never killed me as far as I can recall and Centipedes did once in a Spider portal when there was 12 of them and I thought "Oh, it's just Centipedes, I'll just one-shot them one by one". They're early poison threats, but ball pythons and adders spawn at the same time.

I like the idea of Wolves, Hounds, and War Dogs being good at tracking you. If we don't cut war dogs, we can make them a little different by having them be exceptional trackers and only spawning with humanoids. They'll track down the player and their masters will follow them, which could make some orc packs harder to avoid if they have some War Dogs with them.

[jejorda2]

I you don't have to run from canines when you see them, will tracking get a chance to be interesting? I guess if they wake up when you enter the level and start barking to announce your location or something, you may be forced to leave the level to avoid fighting the whole level at once. I know I change my behavior when I see the "distant slurping" message. "Distant howling" might lead to the adjustments.

[XuaXua]

XuaXua: We definitely do have a ton of snakes, but they all tend to be valid threats when and where they show up. I left out ball pythons and adders deliberately, because I think they do a nice job where they're at in early D. We'll get to discussing the other snakes later, though.

Cool because while we're up to our arms in them in this game (and naga!) I was a tad disappointed to learn about and never experience Subtractor Snakes because that is an awesome name. Totally a Zot Branch sounding beastie.

[TwilightPhoenix]

I you don't have to run from canines when you see them, will tracking get a chance to be interesting?

Well, say suppose Orc packs can start including Hounds. Suppose you run into an early pack of Orcs containing two or three priests, more than you can presently handle, some regular Orcs, and a couple of Hounds. Only the hounds notice you initially. Right now, that's no big deal, just step back, lure the Hounds, and murder them. But if they can track you and lead their owners to you, that makes this situation a bit more interesting (and dangerous). If you try to flee, the Hounds will follow you and the Orcs will follow the Hounds, allowing them to chase you around the level without easy escape. Of course, you could try to kill the Hounds so the Orcs can't track you, but then you risk getting into the Priests' line of fire. And perhaps, depending on how it works, you may flee the level and come back on another staircase and the Orcs could eventually be led to you, though I suspect that might be annoying.

[Pleont]

One thing to keep in mind about the rats is that they appear from their own summoning spell. So, while the difference in stats is marginal to the player as an opponent, they do make a difference as allies. Also, an enemy vampire's summon small mammals has access to the green and orange rats; whereas, the player's summon small mammals only has access up to grey rats, I believe.

On the matter of War Dogs, Grum spawns with a pack of them, so he would have to be reflavoured if War Dogs become Wolves. I don't think wolves fit his character, but keeping War Dogs only for Grum might be interesting in the same way that it's easy to identify Pikel and Kirke from the packs they spawn around. Though, the suspense of wondering if each pack of Wolves equals Grum around the corner is exciting in the same way that seeing several undead means Josephine might be nearby.

Keep Giant Centipedes, but give them a life cycle where they increasingly grow longer and longer as time passes, thus resulting in a much nastier monster the longer the player spends on a level with one. At its final stage, this massively long Centipede will, after receiving sufficient damage or a powerful strike, explode into a multitude of Giant Centipedes that will appear all across the room. If the player destructs this thing in a tunnel, then the result would highly likely be the player trapped in a tunnel full of Giant Centipedes. The range of effect should be great, so rangers and mages will have to consider their options a little more carefully.

Mites should cause sickness in addition to poison. Any mammals (e.g. rats) that are adjacent to a Mite will become infected, making them also capable of causing sickness to the player. Thus, while the Mite itself might not kill the player, the sickness effect would make them more of a threat in places like the sewer portals, or on levels where the Mite has the opportunity to spread its disease.

[Roderic]

Mites aren't those very little arachnids who eat dust ?

Why not change them by their cousin tick ? It has a double facet attack:
- first when on sight it runs towards you as a kamikaze spore just to attach to your body, taking your HP for a few turns while it is parasiting you.
- Second, once feed, it leaves you and flees or tries to attack you as a mite does.

[JeffQyzt]

Mites aren't those very little arachnids who eat dust ?

There are lots of different types of mites. Besides the dust mites, there are various parasitic species, some of which behave similarly to ticks (though they're generally smaller.)

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mite

[XuaXua]

Mites aren't those very little arachnids who eat dust ?

Why not change them by their cousin tick ? It has a double facet attack:
- first when on sight it runs towards you as a kamikaze spore just to attach to your body, taking your HP for a few turns while it is parasiting you.
- Second, once feed, it leaves you and flees or tries to attack you as a mite does.

- Third: Lyme disease.

[Jabberwocky]

Mites aren't those very little arachnids who eat dust ?

Why not change them by their cousin tick ? It has a double facet attack:
- first when on sight it runs towards you as a kamikaze spore just to attach to your body, taking your HP for a few turns while it is parasiting you.
- Second, once feed, it leaves you and flees or tries to attack you as a mite does.

- Third: Lyme disease.

Don't forget Rocky Mountain Spotted feaver.

[Roderic]

When parasiting the tick could add its weight and burden you.

[njvack]

When parasiting the tick could add its weight and burden you.

... actually, that's kind of an interesting trick. Might be more interesting in something that swarms and has Blink Adjacent, though.

Blink Mites?

[palin]

I would find interesting the burdening idea if it would come from some sort of slime...

[Roderic]

Whichever the critter which attaches to you, would be interesting to have the possibility to get rid of it before it becomes a nuisance. Proposals: a) target yourself, with a degree to harm the critter rather than you or including you, b) poisoning yourself, which implies that the critter removes immediately from an intoxicated host, c) scrolls of immolation... obvious. I like a) and b) because currently they are useless.

[roctavian]

In fact I have been putting together a propsal for a god of parasitism, and the tick ideas here could dovetail nicely with the ideas I have on deck.
(unfortunately my laptop just melted down, so besides the fact that I'm pursuing residency and looking for permanent housing in a new country, I have severely limited internet access, if anyone actually cares)

At the simplest level: I think Giant Mites could be made much more relevant if they caused weak sickness rather than poison, since it would at least introduce a different game concept.

[onton]

In fact I have been putting together a propsal for a god of parasitism, and the tick ideas here could dovetail nicely with the ideas I have on deck.
(unfortunately my laptop just melted down, so besides the fact that I'm pursuing residency and looking for permanent housing in a new country, I have severely limited internet access, if anyone actually cares)

At the simplest level: I think Giant Mites could be made much more relevant if they caused weak sickness rather than poison, since it would at least introduce a different game concept.

Weak sickness barely has any effect - you just wait it go out. I believe this is the main reason we have nausea instead of sickness now.

[nicolae]

Weak sickness barely has any effect - you just wait it go out. I believe this is the main reason we have nausea instead of sickness now.

Would sickness plus poison be significant?

[palin]

Weak sickness barely has any effect - you just wait it go out. I believe this is the main reason we have nausea instead of sickness now.

Would sickness plus poison be significant?

You won't be able to regenerate while poisoned, so maybe at lower levels it would be significant. But it would be simply a matter of waiting to both to wear off or quaff a !curing if the hp total becomes low.

[Galefury]

(unfortunately my laptop just melted down, so besides the fact that I'm pursuing residency and looking for permanent housing in a new country, I have severely limited internet access, if anyone actually cares)

[onton]

You won't be able to regenerate while poisoned, so maybe at lower levels it would be significant. But it would be simply a matter of waiting to both to wear off or quaff a !curing if the hp total becomes low.

By the time you first meet the mites you don't have many potions to spare, so that might actually work. But we must be cautious, so that a single bite does not outright kill a low-level deep elf. Oneshotting is ok, oneshotting by a mite is a bit harsh.

[Roderic]

You won't be able to regenerate while poisoned, so maybe at lower levels it would be significant. But it would be simply a matter of waiting to both to wear off or quaff a !curing if the hp total becomes low.

By the time you first meet the mites you don't have many potions to spare, so that might actually work. But we must be cautious, so that a single bite does not outright kill a low-level deep elf. Oneshotting is ok, oneshotting by a mite is a bit harsh.

Mites do not deserve so much toxicity, maybe just an itchy sensation which causes you to let your weapon on the floor to scratch yourself

OTOH, some kind of rat could transmit sickness earlier than komodos do

[XuaXua]

Question about this tick/burden thing: Isn't it pretty much the same effect as Slow?

[BlackSheep]

Slow that can be cured by dropping stuff.

[njvack]

... and affects Trolls less than Deep Elves.

The effect might reasonably only affect movement and not action speed, which would make it different from slow.

[Roderic]

And if you find more of them, you can get overloaded and die by collapse

Edit: also high Dex should reduces the probabilities of the attachement but high Str reduces the effect once it has attached. This way different species has different methods to avoid/overcome the issue.

[Eji1700]

May or may not be desirable flavor, but giving giant centipede's constrict and an HP buff could make them a much larger threat. Possibly drop their poison to normal instead of strong though. I can't think of many(any?) monsters which have a poison constrict combo.

[jejorda2]

I can't think of many(any?) monsters which have a poison constrict combo.

Pythons, adders, water moccaisins, black mambas, Nagas and their kin...

[njvack]

Anacondas don't poison, adders, mocs, and mambas don't constrict. Nagas.

[Eji1700]

Anacondas don't poison, adders, mocs, and mambas don't constrict. Nagas.

Which don't show up too much outside of their branch. Hence modifying a normal and earlier monster to introduce the threat might not be a bad idea.

[Jabberwocky]

Anacondas don't poison, adders, mocs, and mambas don't constrict. Nagas.

Which don't show up too much outside of their branch. Hence modifying a normal and earlier monster to introduce the threat might not be a bad idea.

Adder's are quite a common early dungeon threat.

[XuaXua]

Anacondas don't poison, adders, mocs, and mambas don't constrict. Nagas.

Which don't show up too much outside of their branch. Hence modifying a normal and earlier monster to introduce the threat might not be a bad idea.

Adder's are quite a common early dungeon threat.

And ball pythons all up ins too.
Also sewer.
And water moccasins all over D and with black mambas in lair.

[Eji1700]

Anacondas don't poison, adders, mocs, and mambas don't constrict. Nagas.

Which don't show up too much outside of their branch. Hence modifying a normal and earlier monster to introduce the threat might not be a bad idea.

Adder's are quite a common early dungeon threat.

That don't constrict. Again the idea is a monster that can constrict and poison.

[Roderic]

Snakes either constrict or poison, never both things.

[Eji1700]

Snakes either constrict or poison, never both things.

Yes....and naga's are one of the only monsters that currently do both and since they rarely are seen outside of snake(which isn't even guaranteed) i'd say it's a combo that could get a little more exposure. Hence we could rework giant centipede's to be the only early monsters to have both constriction and poison thus making them a bit more of a threat. As they currently stand they're mostly tab fodder, and this would at least make them more unique and a more legitimate threat to several playstyles. They may still need an HP buff.

[Roderic]

Snakes either constrict or poison, never both things.

Yes....and naga's are one of the only monsters that currently do both and since they rarely are seen outside of snake(which isn't even guaranteed) i'd say it's a combo that could get a little more exposure. Hence we could rework giant centipede's to be the only early monsters to have both constriction and poison thus making them a bit more of a threat. As they currently stand they're mostly tab fodder, and this would at least make them more unique and a more legitimate threat to several playstyles. They may still need an HP buff.

WARNING, gross:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3APJA0EedSE

I fully support this option

[galehar]

Since poison and constriction have the exact same effect (damage over time), I'm not sure combining the 2 is especially interesting.

[Eji1700]

Since poison and constriction have the exact same effect (damage over time), I'm not sure combining the 2 is especially interesting.

It's more the movement restriction combined with a lasting dot. Poison is generally mitigated early game by running away or killing the poisoner before you get too many stacks. Constriction eliminates the running aspect and would be a serious issue for most glass cannon builds. Spriggians, felids, octopodes and a few other race/class combo's would probably not enjoy being forced to have a few more turns with a cuddly monster with strong poison. Also doesn't constrict drop dodge?

[crate]

Mimics have constriction and poison, iirc.

[jejorda2]

Should mites be vampiric? Like miniature leeches instead of miniature centipedes? And what if they had a "latch" effect, such that teleporting away or moving away at high speed just results in the mite remaining in melee range at your new location, without being in your inventory?

[ontoclasm]

Hands up if you've ever considered teleporting away from a giant mite. Anyone?

Most of the monsters listed are boring not (only) because they lack special abilities, but (also) because they are wimpy. Orc warriors are interesting, despite being utterly vanilla - they're dangerously powerful for where they spawn, get good equipment at a time when it still makes a difference, and spawn with wizards and priests for them to shield. Ogres are the bane of many new players, and they're speed 10, melee-only lumps of HP. Conversely, ball pythons have constriction -- and you wouldn't even notice if there weren't a big yellow status light associated with it. The most interesting mechanic in the world is going to mean absolutely nothing if it's on a monster that you can kill by pressing tab twice.

[XuaXua]

Red centaurs keep showing up shallower and shallower in trunk these days.

[jejorda2]

Red centaurs keep showing up shallower and shallower in trunk these days.

When you say "red centaur," are you talking about yaktaur captains who wear red shirts in tiles and have a red c glyph in console, plain yaktaurs who have a red c glyph in console, centaur warriors who have red hair on their hides in tiles, or plain centaurs whose names are red because they are deemed a serious threat?

[jejorda2]

Hands up if you've ever considered teleporting away from a giant mite. Anyone?

No, but as a spriggan, felid, centaur, or air elementalist I've stepped away to gain distance and use a ranged attack to avoid the poison. If they latch on and stay with you without taking an action to move, they may get a few hits in, and they can't be kited after their first hit.