Feedback on Trunk deployment (.11)


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Post Tuesday, 1st May 2012, 14:05

Re: Feedback on Trunk deployment (.11)

Galefury wrote:I also noticed this, so I reported it.


Cool; I just got to this now, so thanks.
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Post Friday, 4th May 2012, 04:42

Re: Feedback on Trunk deployment (.11)

Has OOD or generation been changed?

I just encountered a gryphon on D3 and I know the timeout didn't take place.
Different game, immediately after, I encounter a giant spore on D2, threw something at it, killed the ballist and gained 3 levels.
Worm Zombie on another D1 gave me almost 2 levels which was great, but I think it was part of the entry vault.

Anyway it just feels like something is off because these aren't the only early heavy XP monsters I've encountered.
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Post Friday, 4th May 2012, 07:53

Re: Feedback on Trunk deployment (.11)

XuaXua wrote:Has OOD or generation been changed?

There has been a big change in how levels and branches are handled internally. It's possible that there are some side effects on monster generation, but if it's the case it's not intended.

XuaXua wrote:I just encountered a gryphon on D3 and I know the timeout didn't take place.
Different game, immediately after, I encounter a giant spore on D2, threw something at it, killed the ballist and gained 3 levels.
Worm Zombie on another D1 gave me almost 2 levels which was great, but I think it was part of the entry vault.

It's called a griffon and its native depth is 13. Spore is 11 and small zombie 10. Depth difference higher than 5 should be very rare, so it seems like there's something wrong.
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Post Friday, 4th May 2012, 10:06

Re: Feedback on Trunk deployment (.11)

Being sure the timer hasn't been triggered is kind of hard, because it actually is really short, the probability for OOD monsters just ramps up over time. IIRC it was 700 turns for OOD generation and 1400 turns for super-OOD generation. You wont start seeing frequent OOD spawns until quite a while after those limits because they start with low probability.

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Post Friday, 4th May 2012, 12:26

Re: Feedback on Trunk deployment (.11)

Yeah OOD seems a little bit off to me, I'm seeing much harder one off monsters further up, just found a deep elf on 6 and then in another game a manticore on 5, I know the OOD timer wasn't over because both times were really quickly after I went onto the level. However, It has been quite interesting, mainly because both haven't been really bad OOD's, just scared to find a hydra popping up soon!
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Post Friday, 4th May 2012, 13:03

Re: Feedback on Trunk deployment (.11)

Bim wrote:I know the OOD timer wasn't over because both times were really quickly after I went onto the level.


Exact same scenario. I have barely explored and there they are. My version is crawl_tiles-0.11-a0-1529

galehar wrote:
XuaXua wrote:I just encountered a gryphon on D3

It's called a griffon


It can be spelled Griffon, Griffin, or Gryphon; all are considered correct, but yeah Crawl uses the one that shows up the least on Google.
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Post Saturday, 5th May 2012, 02:16

Re: Feedback on Trunk deployment (.11)

Should I assume this resolves the issue?
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Post Saturday, 12th May 2012, 14:41

Re: Feedback on Trunk deployment (.11)

For the last few updates to trunk (I'm playing 0.11-a0-1761-g3a0ba81 now) I've been identifying the enchantments on weapons much faster than usual. Just picking up a polearm is usually enough to identify it (I'm at 26 skill there) but even axes (where I have 4 skill) or bows (where I have 0 skill) sometimes identify from carrying them. I'm concerned that it now makes sense to pick up every single weapon to identify it and decide which ones my orc allies should use, where before it was so difficult that I would never consider it.
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Post Saturday, 12th May 2012, 16:44

Re: Feedback on Trunk deployment (.11)

jejorda2 wrote:Im concerned that it now makes sense to pick up every single weapon to identify it and decide which ones my orc allies should use, where before it was so difficult that I would never consider it.


If I understand it correctly, Orc allies intuitively know weapon enchantment and will always replace their carried weapon for one of greater enchantment, as long as it's near the top of the pile because they don't dig down deep into stacks (unless that was fixed; can't recall). Granted, there should be more automated malleability in this. See the ally management suggestions on the dev wiki for more on this.
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Post Saturday, 12th May 2012, 20:32

Re: Feedback on Trunk deployment (.11)

jejorda2 wrote:For the last few updates to trunk (I'm playing 0.11-a0-1761-g3a0ba81 now) I've been identifying the enchantments on weapons much faster than usual. Just picking up a polearm is usually enough to identify it (I'm at 26 skill there) but even axes (where I have 4 skill) or bows (where I have 0 skill) sometimes identify from carrying them. I'm concerned that it now makes sense to pick up every single weapon to identify it and decide which ones my orc allies should use, where before it was so difficult that I would never consider it.

Roll only once for identifying weapons by use.

  Code:
You could tediously id anything by bashing a plant or throwing it at a wall,
with as little as 0.1 skill.  This is no more: every weapon has a secret
skill level needed to auto-id it.  You must know enough about the weapon to
possibly id it under the old system -- having wielded it once is enough, so
are certain other ways.  I intentionally didn't go into the complexity of
checking current curse status or blocking distortion/vamp.

Save compat: on training a weapon skill and certain other events for the
first time, you'll get unsightly ids of a bunch of items.  Probably not
worth any effort, you are very unlikely to get multiple ids at once during
normal play.

This commit does not handle missiles: they are mergeable and thus don't have
an unique random number, it would be enough to id one with the smallest
number and then merge stacks, you are currently encouraged to keep one of
every missile with different enchantments, etc.


You still need to have wielded it once to id it, so id'ing every weapon for your allies is going to be expensive in ?RC and with distortion. Especially since they can choose their weapon themselves (even if it's not perfect).

XuaXua wrote:as long as it's near the top of the pile because they don't dig down deep into stacks (unless that was fixed; can't recall).

Well, from the code comments, it's intentional, so there's no fixing to be done. Maybe it could be changed though, not sure if it's such a good behaviour.
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Post Saturday, 12th May 2012, 23:25

Re: Feedback on Trunk deployment (.11)

ORIGINAL TEXTIf you want to arm your army properly, intimidated realized they didn't dig, I threw together an arms stack in a 1straitjacket space corridor and walked my followers through it.

With the stack depth limit in place, if it is, I'd need a long corridor of stashed tediously stacked to the limit, and amount new piles would require checking stash depths for shortage or useless items (clubs).

EDIT: I hate my phone. Really? Straitjacket? In what fucking universe would I have needed that word as a suggestion?

KoboldLord typed what I intended.

EDITED TEXTI wanted to arm my army properly, and did not realize they didn't dig through stashes. I threw together a single-space stash in a 1-space width corridor and walked my followers through it.

With the stack depth limit in place, I would need a long corridor of stashes tediously stacked to the (5-depth?) limit, and occasionally new piles would require re-checking stash depths for shortage or useless items (clubs) to discard from the area.

TL;DR: Forcing your army through a 1-square width corridor with a single, deep stack to search for equipment is much easier and less tedious than the current state of managing dozens of short-depth equipment stacks through a long corridor.
Last edited by XuaXua on Friday, 25th May 2012, 15:30, edited 2 times in total.
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Post Sunday, 13th May 2012, 00:09

Re: Feedback on Trunk deployment (.11)

Uh, what?

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Post Sunday, 13th May 2012, 02:43

Re: Feedback on Trunk deployment (.11)

I think what XuaXua meant is that having orcs stop looking for equipment after the first two items on a stack increases the tedium of arming them, rather than decreasing it. Items tend to naturally stack up in the same tile as monsters file into your choke point to die, so after a big pile of elves or vault guards or whatever all die on the same tile you're left with a big pile of potentially-useful loot on a single tile. Your orcs won't look through it even if there's the freaking +16/+16 Plutonium Sword sitting four items down in the pile, but if you tediously move it piece by piece to a long hallway you can make sure every orc looks at every bit of equipment to see if they like it better.

I'm actually not sure what the point of the current behavior is. I assume it was intended to emulate stereotypical orcish stupidity, but at best it's an artificial way to represent the behavior and at worst it's an active drag on Beoghite gameplay.

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Post Sunday, 13th May 2012, 05:04

Re: Feedback on Trunk deployment (.11)

KoboldLord wrote:I think what XuaXua meant is that having orcs stop looking for equipment after the first two items on a stack increases the tedium of arming them, rather than decreasing it. Items tend to naturally stack up in the same tile as monsters file into your choke point to die, so after a big pile of elves or vault guards or whatever all die on the same tile you're left with a big pile of potentially-useful loot on a single tile. Your orcs won't look through it even if there's the freaking +16/+16 Plutonium Sword sitting four items down in the pile, but if you tediously move it piece by piece to a long hallway you can make sure every orc looks at every bit of equipment to see if they like it better.

I'm actually not sure what the point of the current behavior is. I assume it was intended to emulate stereotypical orcish stupidity, but at best it's an artificial way to represent the behavior and at worst it's an active drag on Beoghite gameplay.


This. It's one of the primary reasons I stopped playing Beogh Orcs.

edit: holy shit what the fuck did I type? Fucking phone automatic guessing text replacement.
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Post Sunday, 13th May 2012, 11:30

Re: Feedback on Trunk deployment (.11)

Yeah, I agree it's pretty bad. However, simply allowing them to look through the whole stash isn't that simple. A monster compares an item to the one it's using. As soon as it finds a better one, it picks it up and equips it. If an even better item is deeper down the stash, the monster will end up changing item several time instead of picking the best one right away.
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Post Sunday, 13th May 2012, 20:00

Re: Feedback on Trunk deployment (.11)

So the solution would be

1) leave as is
2) revise weapon stack evaluation
3) evaluate all and experience a noticeable delay of... ?
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Post Sunday, 13th May 2012, 20:34

Re: Feedback on Trunk deployment (.11)

Is 2 and 3 supposed to be 2 different solutions?
Anyway, I doubt it would have a significant performance impact. It's not like monsters constantly stand on piles of loot. And even when they do (clearing an orc room?), it shouldn't be noticeable.
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Post Sunday, 13th May 2012, 21:51

Re: Feedback on Trunk deployment (.11)

galehar wrote:You still need to have wielded it once to id it


This is not how it is working when I am playing. I ID many weapons by picking them up, and I see enchantment on weapons my allies are using that I haven't ever wielded. There may even be some identified weapons that I haven't picked up, but I'm not positive on that point.
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Post Sunday, 13th May 2012, 21:59

Re: Feedback on Trunk deployment (.11)

Was the Xom Inner Flame effect added in 0.11? I'm pretty sure I haven't seen it before. It's pretty brutal! Then again, it's Xom we're talking about so I guess who cares. :P
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Post Monday, 14th May 2012, 01:29

Re: Feedback on Trunk deployment (.11)

galehar wrote:Is 2 and 3 supposed to be 2 different solutions?


2 is supposed to be a different way of comparing weapons; evaluate all items, then equip the best, don't equip then re-equip then re-equip.
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Post Monday, 14th May 2012, 09:35

Re: Feedback on Trunk deployment (.11)

jejorda2 wrote:
galehar wrote:You still need to have wielded it once to id it


This is not how it is working when I am playing. I ID many weapons by picking them up, and I see enchantment on weapons my allies are using that I haven't ever wielded. There may even be some identified weapons that I haven't picked up, but I'm not positive on that point.

Yes, thrown weapons don't need to have know curse status. You used to be able to plus id-them without having to wield them and this was kept, because it would be complicated to show pluses and convey at the same time that you don't know the cursed status.
This might be changed though.

TehDruid wrote:Was the Xom Inner Flame effect added in 0.11?

Yes.
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Post Wednesday, 16th May 2012, 01:18

Re: Feedback on Trunk deployment (.11)

The pack of Orange Demons on D:7 few steps from the stairs... That's a bit brutal. OOD generation is a bit odd in trunk.

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Post Wednesday, 16th May 2012, 10:59

Re: Feedback on Trunk deployment (.11)

kefir645 wrote:The pack of Orange Demons on D:7 few steps from the stairs... That's a bit brutal. OOD generation is a bit odd in trunk.


Those weren't generated Out of Depth. They were the inhabitants of a vault designed and intentionally set at that depth. It would've probably been prudent to go back up the stairs, come down another set, and try to lure them away from their vault individually.
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Post Friday, 18th May 2012, 19:21

Re: Feedback on Trunk deployment (.11)

I just started up a new ogre hunter, to see how badly large rocks are affected by the ranged combat changes. The first amulet I found did not identify upon wearing, but in the character screen I can see very clearly that I have rMut+ which goes away after taking off the amulet. Still, the amulet is not identified. Is this a bug?
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Post Friday, 18th May 2012, 19:32

Re: Feedback on Trunk deployment (.11)

twelwe wrote:I just started up a new ogre hunter, to see how badly large rocks are affected by the ranged combat changes. The first amulet I found did not identify upon wearing, but in the character screen I can see very clearly that I have rMut+ which goes away after taking off the amulet. Still, the amulet is not identified. Is this a bug?


I would say so; create a mantis bug and upload your file.
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Post Sunday, 20th May 2012, 03:47

Re: Feedback on Trunk deployment (.11)

I love the new tiles in trunk for weapons and armour (who'd have guessed elves prefer WIDE blades?), but I think something got lost.

Many tiles for artefact armour do not appear visually distinct from other, normal armour. It is only the adjectives that set them apart. I am constantly ctrl-f "artef" to see if I missed one.

Was this intentional?
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Post Sunday, 20th May 2012, 03:55

Re: Feedback on Trunk deployment (.11)

XuaXua wrote:(who'd have guessed elves prefer WIDE blades?)

Those are modelled on the ancient Greek xiphos: http://www.redtanto.com/wp-content/uplo ... xiphos.jpg
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Post Sunday, 20th May 2012, 04:30

Re: Feedback on Trunk deployment (.11)

And speaking of tiles, unless I missed it in a prior build, the new coin tiles in the latest trunk are awesome.
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Post Sunday, 20th May 2012, 05:33

Re: Feedback on Trunk deployment (.11)

Spider's nest is often so crowded with webs that it makes it really hard to clearly see what is where, compared to the rest of the dungeon.
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Post Monday, 21st May 2012, 00:41

Re: Feedback on Trunk deployment (.11)

glyphic wrote:Spider's nest is often so crowded with webs that it makes it really hard to clearly see what is where, compared to the rest of the dungeon.


Tiles or console-style?

I ask because the tiles for spider webbing can be easily overhauled.
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Post Monday, 21st May 2012, 04:41

Re: Feedback on Trunk deployment (.11)

Ah- I play tiles.

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Post Monday, 21st May 2012, 18:55

Re: Feedback on Trunk deployment (.11)

The change to IMB is kind of interesting, but the explosion animation on console is too fast to see. If it was more like evaporate and fireball, I could better tell what area is affected. As is, the message (The orb of energy explodes!) lets me know there are explosions, but I have no idea what the range of the explosions is.

When it explodes next to me, I don't see noticeable damage to myself. I haven't seen anything die from a remote explosion, but I usually use cloud spells on groups with this build. Maybe explosion damage needs to be increased, and projectile damage decreased, if these are separate things?
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Post Tuesday, 22nd May 2012, 04:58

Re: Feedback on Trunk deployment (.11)

glyphic wrote:Ah- I play tiles.

Then the next step is to make the webs a bit less graphically loud.
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Post Tuesday, 22nd May 2012, 12:30

Re: Feedback on Trunk deployment (.11)

Nothing wrong with the current webs IMO. Also there are roughly a bajillion of web tiles.

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Post Tuesday, 22nd May 2012, 14:43

Re: Feedback on Trunk deployment (.11)

Galefury wrote:Nothing wrong with the current webs IMO. Also there are roughly a bajillion of web tiles.


Well, glyphic is the one complaining. I'm-a gonna go check out the tiles, one sec.

... opens feat.png in photoshop

... notices 20 individual web tiles

... copies to a white background

... hmm

OK, so while the webs are not only huge tiles, covering a lot of graphical real-estate, they're a tad sloppy. There are several with extra pixel noise, contrasted to most other tiles which are clean or sharp. Understandably, there is some transparency, but that doesn't forgive arbitrary pixels uninvolved with the web getting covered, though that might be artistic choice and if that's the case then that's totally fine.

Regardless of the extra pixel noise, I can certainly see these detracting from view of what's under the web and I can also see how they might get thinned a bit to ease the view. In the current state, it's my opinion that these create more of a penalty to play webbed areas in tiles than in console mode.
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Post Friday, 25th May 2012, 03:52

Re: Feedback on Trunk deployment (.11)

The elves of the Elf:4 treasure vault are picking up and wielding items of treasure against me. I don't remember them doing this before. I understand that it makes sense that they would use these things but it makes the final inspection of the loot a little disappointing because many items are scattered over the battlefield, not together in one big pile as they used to be.
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Post Friday, 25th May 2012, 05:31

Re: Feedback on Trunk deployment (.11)

Grimm wrote:The elves of the Elf:4 treasure vault are picking up and wielding items of treasure against me. I don't remember them doing this before. I understand that it makes sense that they would use these things but it makes the final inspection of the loot a little disappointing because many items are scattered over the battlefield, not together in one big pile as they used to be.


They do this in .9 and .10... I agree that it makes going through loot a pain... just kill them all in the same spot and you just have to gg on one pile :D
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Post Friday, 25th May 2012, 07:44

Re: Feedback on Trunk deployment (.11)

Grimm wrote:The elves of the Elf:4 treasure vault are picking up and wielding items of treasure against me.

They always did.
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Post Friday, 25th May 2012, 08:19

Re: Feedback on Trunk deployment (.11)

I guess I never noticed it before, or got some RNG flukes.
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Post Friday, 25th May 2012, 15:22

Re: Feedback on Trunk deployment (.11)

Grimm wrote:I guess I never noticed it before, or got some RNG flukes.


Try not to confuse them into that deep water at the entrance if you get that end vault. :)
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Post Friday, 25th May 2012, 15:41

Re: Feedback on Trunk deployment (.11)

Elves will no longer self-terminate:

https://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl/commi ... 0b5d784167
I am not a very good player. My mouth is a foul pit of LIES. KNOW THIS.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Joined: Thursday, 10th February 2011, 18:30

Post Friday, 25th May 2012, 17:00

Re: Feedback on Trunk deployment (.11)

njvack wrote:Elves will no longer self-terminate:


So I guess I gotta lower them into the molten steel myself, then.
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Blades Runner

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Joined: Thursday, 12th January 2012, 21:03

Post Friday, 25th May 2012, 20:02

Re: Feedback on Trunk deployment (.11)

Kiku gives different books now, it seems.
Last edited by Igxfl on Friday, 25th May 2012, 20:23, edited 2 times in total.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 25th May 2012, 20:04

Re: Feedback on Trunk deployment (.11)

Randomised randart books, that is; however, Control Undead is guaranteed in the first and Dispel Undead in the second, if I remember correctly.

Zot Zealot

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Joined: Tuesday, 4th January 2011, 15:03

Post Sunday, 3rd June 2012, 18:45

Re: Feedback on Trunk deployment (.11)

Kiku's nerf suprised me when I got neither regeneration nor agony on a character that planned not to use slaves too much because he was stealthy and tried to stab things. I've never reached the pain weapon :(

Ziggurat Zagger

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Joined: Friday, 17th December 2010, 18:17

Post Monday, 4th June 2012, 17:52

Re: Feedback on Trunk deployment (.11)

XuaXua wrote:I love the new tiles in trunk for weapons and armour (who'd have guessed elves prefer WIDE blades?), but I think something got lost.

Many tiles for artefact armour do not appear visually distinct from other, normal armour. It is only the adjectives that set them apart. I am constantly ctrl-f "artef" to see if I missed one.

Was this intentional?

I am noticing this too. I am guessing that it's intentional to remove the advantage tiles players had over console. I preferred the old way because it was exciting to see interesting-looking treasure.
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Barkeep

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Post Monday, 4th June 2012, 17:55

Re: Feedback on Trunk deployment (.11)

Artefacts generally look "interesting" in console -- they use nonstandard colors for the glyphs. Unique monsters are similar.
I am not a very good player. My mouth is a foul pit of LIES. KNOW THIS.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Joined: Friday, 17th December 2010, 18:17

Post Monday, 4th June 2012, 18:00

Re: Feedback on Trunk deployment (.11)

I was under the false impression that that was not the case. So why the change in tiles?
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 4th June 2012, 18:36

Re: Feedback on Trunk deployment (.11)

Grimm wrote:I was under the false impression that that was not the case. So why the change in tiles?


As I noted, I think it's unintentional, but not widely noticed because it's occasional and I believe many primary developers don't play Tiles mode.
"Be aware that a lot of people on this forum, such as mageykun and XuaXua, have a habit of making things up." - minmay a.k.a. duvessa
Did I make a lame complaint? Check for Bingo!
Totally gracious CSDC Season 2 Division 4 Champeen!

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6393

Joined: Friday, 17th December 2010, 18:17

Post Wednesday, 6th June 2012, 05:49

Re: Feedback on Trunk deployment (.11)

Did unseen horrors get immunity to wands of polymorph? I just zapped one a half dozen times and "Nothing seems to happen."
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