constriction balance


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Post Monday, 9th January 2012, 22:30

constriction balance

As noted by evilmike, current constriction numbers aren't meant to stay. Let's try to balance them.

Constriction damage (from player):
  Code:
(str - 1d(3)) / 3 + 1d(duration + 1)
mon-act.cc:1945

note: ac works against constriction but not as much as against regular damage (damage is reduced by 1d(ac/2)).

escape formula:
  Code:
// player breaks free if size*attempts > 5 + d(12) + d(HD)
// this is inefficient on purpose, simplify after debug
player.cc:7382


Any proposal? Any other constriction formula needing adjustment?
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Post Monday, 9th January 2012, 23:08

Re: constriction balance

What is the current to-hit qualifier of constriction?

In my opinion, size vs. size should factor into damage.
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Post Tuesday, 10th January 2012, 00:51

Re: constriction balance

I should say here, there are two major problems with the escape formula (which have been pointed out elsewhere, but bear repeating).

1. It is possible to have a size of 0, which means size * attempts will always be 0. This happens in bat form and spider form I think. (this one was pointed out by amethyst)
2. The largest size for a player race is 4, which means that your first attempt will always fail unless you are in dragon form.

One cheap fix would be to make the formula something like
  Code:
if (size + 1) * attempts > 2 + d(12) + d(HD)

although a new formula would be better. The one I posted here is just a quick fix. I think overall, it would be best to have a formula that accounts for your str, along with number of attempts and size. I haven't been able to come up with anything good though.


As for the damage players do, I think the basic idea behind the formula is good (more damage over time) but it just starts too high, too early. Maybe it should do 1/5 the damage it currently does at xl 1, and scale up the current level at some high xl. That's a pretty heavy nerf, but it's an overpowered effect right now. I think kilobyte suggested cutting damage by 1/3. I haven't played a full naga game with constriction yet (just a few early game throwaway characters) so it would be good to have input from someone who has won one (or more) games with constriction.
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Post Tuesday, 10th January 2012, 09:15

Re: constriction balance

Maybe full AC should matter?

Constriction at the moment is really noticeable against enemies with high AC since it makes them a hell of a lot easier to kill (for example orc warriors in the early game). If this makes it too easy for players with high AC to defend against it... then why not just make monster constriction do more damage?

Also just an idea: maybe high EV could help break out of constriction too. I don't see how size calculations make for anything interesting... size is already used to calculate EV and I can imagine a small octopus constricting a large giant's face for damage over time.

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Post Tuesday, 10th January 2012, 16:07

Re: constriction balance

snow wrote:and I can imagine a small octopus constricting a large giant's face for damage over time.

:?:
I can't see that at all. The giant would just pull the octopus off and throw it against the wall. Similarly, there's no reason the new small snake should be able to do appreciable damage to something like a troll or ogre. I don't think a garter snake could damage me via squeezing and I'm substantially smaller than an ogre.

Now if we're talking a giant squid against a giant, well then I can see a battle.

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Post Wednesday, 11th January 2012, 03:39

Re: constriction balance

Personally I'd like the damage to be very minimal but to have constriction go back to interacting with translocations (in the way it did at first: you can always blink but will always drag the constricter/constrictee with you). The original implementation was a lot of fun but obviously did way too much damage. The current implementation is very boring and still does way too much damage.

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Post Wednesday, 11th January 2012, 08:33

Re: constriction balance

I guess balancing constriction first requires saying "how much of the threat of a monster should come from constricting vs standard spells and attacks". I think "lots of it" is the right answer. Since constriction is here to stay, nerfing the standard melee and magical attacks of dangerous constrictors would be a good place to start. Fast, constricting snakes would also be good candidates for glass cannons if more of those are desired.

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Post Wednesday, 11th January 2012, 14:08

Re: constriction balance

Or make constriction mutually exclusive with normal actions. The anaconda can't keep biting you if it's squeezing you, and the naga warrior is going to have a hard time punching you if its lower body is wrapped around you.

Although for players this is already slightly unbalanced -- if I'm fighting multiple monsters, I can start constricting one and beat on another while still applying constriction to the first. Very handy for orc mobs.

(Been working on one of my own combo suggestions, NaMo*Chei, with getting a level 9 spell castable in heavy armour as a requirement. Much easier to do while player constriction balance is still being worked on.)
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Post Thursday, 12th January 2012, 09:05

Re: constriction balance

XuaXua wrote:What is the current to-hit qualifier of constriction?

Player constrict Monster:
  Code:
3d(str*(size+1)) vs 1d(3*EV*(size+1))


Monster constrict player:
  Code:
1d(HD*(size+1)) vs 1d(EV*(size+1))


Regarding damage, dividing initial damage by 3 and scaling it with XP so that it reaches current level at XL 27 is simple. Just multiply the current formula by (27+2*XL)/81. I also find it strange that the base damage isn't randomized much. Here is a change that reduces the base damage by about 25%, randomize it a bit more, and then scale it from 1/3 at XL1 to 1 at XL27:

  Code:
((27+2*XL)/81)*(2d(str/2)/2 + 1d(duration +1))


All divisions are implemented with div_rand_round of course.

regarding the escape formula, I think the left side of the equation should look like this:
  Code:
(size+str/5)*(attempts+2)


Not sure how to adapt the right side to balance it.
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Post Thursday, 12th January 2012, 09:37

Re: constriction balance

As far as escape chance, just what are we aiming for? I would think...

1 attempt = low
2 attempts = high
3 attempts = almost gauranteed

If that's true, I don't think we would even need the attempts +2, just flat out lower the right side (or leave it alone since the str/5 is now there). Attempts +2 would be aiming more for.. medium->medium->high->high. Unless that's what you guys want.

Edit: erm, meant it should probably be attempts + 1, not plain attempts. That must've been confusing.
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Post Monday, 16th January 2012, 23:19

Re: constriction balance

I've seen on IRC that Eronarn has suggested this formula:

  Code:
((27+2*XL)/81)*(2d(str/5) + duration))


Similar to my earlier suggestion, but simpler
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Post Monday, 16th January 2012, 23:59

Re: constriction balance

galehar wrote:
XuaXua wrote:What is the current to-hit qualifier of constriction?


Formulae


Why doesn't the Unarmed Combat skill work into any of this?
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Post Tuesday, 17th January 2012, 10:47

Re: constriction balance

XuaXua wrote:
galehar wrote:
XuaXua wrote:What is the current to-hit qualifier of constriction?


Formulae


Why doesn't the Unarmed Combat skill work into any of this?

It's been removed from aux attacks formulae, it wouldn't make sense to use it for constriction. We don't want to force Na and Oc into UC or limit constriction usefulness to a single playstyle (and the skill is already pretty good).
Also, we don't want to many factors in a formulae. Better have a few ones with a strong effect each rather than many factors with an unoticeable effect.
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Post Tuesday, 17th January 2012, 15:50

Re: constriction balance

While size is definitely a prime factor, I feel the to-hit formula should use dexterity, not strength, as you're trying to get around someone.
Strength come into play when determining damage and with the retention formula (with dexterity to a lesser extent in retention to maintain/adjust a hold).
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Post Tuesday, 17th January 2012, 22:56

Re: constriction balance

hmm, yeah, maybe. It would certainly make more sense to use dex than UC.
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Post Friday, 20th January 2012, 08:13

Assessment of Constriction

Assessment of Constriction


By The Mantis

###########################################

This is an attempt to outline objectively the merits and detriments of the current use of constriction by the octopode and naga. While it intends to be a guide on the subject, it is not comprehensive. The author hopes that it will aid in reflection on this subject.
###########################################


Quick points: utilizing OpSt, constriction melee was very powerful at the start, much like playing a Minotaur.

Although the defense of both characters was not high, the damage helped supplement their survivability.

This was not true of insubstantial creatures: a single wraith caused enormous physical drain due to there being no real way for a naga-stalker to kill such an enemy with the method selected and eventually chosen. This method was geared toward constriction and melee.

However, once the subjects grew in experience its power really started to flatten. The incidence of giants and dragons crippled the amount of possible enemies that could be attacked with the bonus of constriction. In addition, many common enemies after that point, such as slime creatures, are not small enough to be readily constricted by an octopode's tentacles and so were only vulnerable to the constriction of the naga.

The Naga had much better uses of constriction due to good health and better defense (in specificity, superior armour and the use of a shield). This permitted the naga to use constriction continuously, which is not the case for most octopodes without a form of status support (see below).

The octopode really suffered, and the bonus damage from this acquired ability was negligible later. While in the Lair, the ability was most useful due to packs of green rats attacking the player. However, many enemies in the Lair of Beasts are also of an extremely large size, preventing constriction from the Octopode.

The naga traversing the dungeon did better because of the larger amount of candidates and the capability to remain in play adjacent to enemies whilst constricting. A naga-stalker is probably the superior candidate for this due to natural poison resistance and excellent power to remain undetected.

Comparison

The Octopode Stalker suffered greatly due to the near-total lack of opportunities for an Octopode to sensibly melee entire groups of dangerous enemies simultaneously, which is the chief advantage of Octopode constriction over that of a Naga. In addition, the Octopode suffers from having one armour slot that can be enchanted to a maximum of +2. Since AC is the primary method of defending against offense that uses multiple attacks, this makes an Octopode possibly the worst candidate for attacking multiple enemies in melee at the same time for any reason, without status support.

Use of Status Support

Status support via Evaporate assisted attacks. However, in a case where Evaporate is effective, it is unlikely that constriction would dispatch enemies to a greater effect than simply stabbing them. The advantage of a constriction Stalker, which must in this case be noted for fairness, is the ability of the Octopode to immobilize opponents whilst dispatching them. To a lesser extent, this is also true of a Naga. However, in both cases, only one out of all possible moves will not be an attempt to break constriction. Therefore, this is a less effective use of one's powers than might be first believed.


Comparison Versus Field Effect Use


A niche use of constriction is in conjunction with Freezing or Poisonous Cloud against a valid opponent. While Constriction requires Strength to be truly viable, continuously applying it via high Dexterity means that opponents find it difficult to escape. Casting Freezing or Poisonous Cloud just once permits a serpent or cephalopod of an enterprising spirit to maintain an enemy in the field until satisfaction is achieved. Much earlier, the use of Conjure Flame also allows this against animals, whom would otherwise flee before being defeated.


Other Notes
The most obvious use of constriction is to prevent fleeing or retreat. This is not an invalid use of constriction; however, a fleeing conjugant will seek to break contact. As such, the use of field or status effect support is mandatory to utilize it effectively.

A secondary use is far later; the ability to damage multiple opponents in melee is useful when attacked by summons that would otherwise force one to use turns attacking them. The most egregious example is a ynoxinul's summoning of attendants, who will immobilize any enemy incapable of outrunning them - at least temporarily - by surrounding them. Considering that ynoxinul are found in the Abyss, where it is unwise to remain immobile for reasons of security and zero profit, this is a highly notable capability that sidesteps the lack of power implicit in a variety of naga that utilize constriction, Strength being the province of few classes. Equally, this is true of octopodes; however, an octopode suffers much more from being mobbed.

Overview
In addition to two games played online, there has been additional playtesting to support this analysis (about five hours).

The conclusion is that constriction, by itself, is not useful for its damage - but rather for its supplementary abilities.

While the naga are potent toward the end-game, their initial power is supplemented by venomous spit, which is typically ignored by the undead and an increasingly large amount of natural and unnatural enemies, and an additional armour slot, which is extremely rare. This ability enters a niche between those points; I argue that it is not strong enough, as it stands. While naga have enormous power at the nascent stage when constricting, it becomes gradually less useful later.

Comparison 2: Octopodes

The new ability is a much-needed boost to the post-initial melee of a race with few available options for defense. Initially, of course, tentacles are a powerful method of attacking opponents for an octopode. Slightly later, octopode melee is inefficient and even dangerous! This, like with the naga, slots in to a period of development that is difficult unilaterally for the octopode.

Postscript

It is considered largely that the best means of improving constriction would be removing initial damage and restoring all anti-translocation that naga previously had. Increasing the constant damage of constriction according to physical power would equalize this. There is no reason to tie it to the level of experience a naga or octopode has; physical strength is something that can be trained. If this seems punishing, so be it.

An additional means of improving it, to counter this, would be to make constricted enemies type 2 candidates for stabbing after a certain period of constriction.

For this message the author The Mantis has received thanks:
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Post Friday, 20th January 2012, 14:53

Re: constriction balance

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Post Friday, 20th January 2012, 14:55

Re: constriction balance

I think "Size" is a bad measure for attack constriction. You can be small in size, but have long tentacles.

Size should be removed from the equation if within a range of 0-1.

There is no euphamism intended.

Also, I think
to-hit should be based on a combination of Unarmed Combat and Dexterity vs EV and Size (unless size already taken into account with EV)
damage should be based on a combination of Unarmed Combat and Strength vs AC.
retention should be based on a combination of Unarmed Combat and Dexterity and Strength vs Dexterity, Strength, Unarmed Combat

Factor in the aforementioned reduced size penalties (can constrict one size up or down without penalty) to to-hit and retention.
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Post Friday, 20th January 2012, 18:25

Re: constriction balance

Sure, but you can be bigger in size with bigger tentacles :/

I can't see a giant squid being worse at constricting than a squid a few feet long.
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Post Friday, 20th January 2012, 19:31

Re: constriction balance

I can see a giant squid unable to wrap around a tiny squid.
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Post Wednesday, 1st February 2012, 17:47

Re: constriction balance

I have now renamed Snake Pit the "Death Branch".

Holy crap.
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Post Wednesday, 1st February 2012, 17:55

Re: constriction balance

if I don't have blink, I don't go into snake pit. that place is terrifying.
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Post Wednesday, 1st February 2012, 18:15

Re: constriction balance

eeviac wrote:if I don't have blink, I don't go into snake pit. that place is terrifying.


Used to be a lot easier, now I think it's almost Tomb-esque.
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Post Wednesday, 1st February 2012, 18:35

Re: constriction balance

Old Pit was too easy. I wouldn't go so far as to compare new Pit to Tomb, but I do think that constriction's melee-range, AC ignoring damage ft. a rooting effect is a little extreme, and makes things (even) harder for melee/heavy armour users, while making spellcasting and translocations more useful than ever.
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Post Wednesday, 1st February 2012, 19:49

Re: constriction balance

Constriction doesn't ignore AC. AC/2 applies.
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Post Wednesday, 1st February 2012, 23:37

Re: constriction balance

eeviac wrote:Old Pit was too easy. I wouldn't go so far as to compare new Pit to Tomb, but I do think that constriction's melee-range, AC ignoring damage ft. a rooting effect is a little extreme, and makes things (even) harder for melee/heavy armour users, while making spellcasting and translocations more useful than ever.

One funny thing to note, is that the old old snake pit was also extremely dangerous. Back in those days, poison arrow did mostly unresistable damage, and spell ranges weren't a thing yet. This made greater nagas incredibly nasty.

With constriction, snake is nasty for different reasons. But maybe this is a way for it to reclaim its old status.

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Post Thursday, 2nd February 2012, 00:39

Re: constriction balance

Eh, it's still not that bad. If you've got a melee character, just farm yaktaurs in Vaults for ammo, and train up crossbows to 8 or 10 or so. Constriction is melee, and melee is bad. Melee characters have to tackle Snake a bit later than a conjuror would, but that's just how it is for them. It isn't like the monsters don't still die when you shoot them repeatedly. Naga are still slow, and there is no summoned chaff to keep you from just gunning them down.

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Post Thursday, 2nd February 2012, 02:13

Re: constriction balance

New Snake is by no means too difficult for characters who kill stuff in melee. If you worship Trog you have berserk and bros, if you don't worship Trog you have spells (blink is level 2 and pretty common; not hard to get castable in plate, especially if you have wizardry) or likely at least still have useful god abilities. Or you can maybe just ninja the rune with some endings if you have ctele and mapping; Snake is one of the easier places to just run past everything except for some of the rune vaults. If you have none of these just do Snake later since you don't need the rune until D:27. Constriction just means naga warriors are no longer a pushover and anacondas are more dangerous, and I think those are both fine.

I'd still very nearly always get Snake than get both Swamp+Shoals since Snake is still significantly less annoying than the other lair branches (and still significantly less deadly than Shoals).

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Post Thursday, 2nd February 2012, 04:03

Re: constriction balance

eeviac wrote:Old Pit was too easy. I wouldn't go so far as to compare new Pit to Tomb, but I do think that constriction's melee-range, AC ignoring damage ft. a rooting effect is a little extreme, and makes things (even) harder for melee/heavy armour users, while making spellcasting and translocations more useful than ever.


I think that important point is that constriction makes spellcasting and translocation, which are already strong, even stronger relative to melee. Constriction is a great new feature, but it would have been nice if it had not weakened melee relative to other strategies.

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Post Thursday, 2nd February 2012, 06:01

Re: constriction balance

smock wrote:
eeviac wrote:Old Pit was too easy. I wouldn't go so far as to compare new Pit to Tomb, but I do think that constriction's melee-range, AC ignoring damage ft. a rooting effect is a little extreme, and makes things (even) harder for melee/heavy armour users, while making spellcasting and translocations more useful than ever.


I think that important point is that constriction makes spellcasting and translocation, which are already strong, even stronger relative to melee. Constriction is a great new feature, but it would have been nice if it had not weakened melee relative to other strategies.


It did buff melee. Play a naga, and you'll see.

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Post Wednesday, 8th February 2012, 04:35

Re: constriction balance

Tiber wrote:
smock wrote:
eeviac wrote:Old Pit was too easy. I wouldn't go so far as to compare new Pit to Tomb, but I do think that constriction's melee-range, AC ignoring damage ft. a rooting effect is a little extreme, and makes things (even) harder for melee/heavy armour users, while making spellcasting and translocations more useful than ever.


I think that important point is that constriction makes spellcasting and translocation, which are already strong, even stronger relative to melee. Constriction is a great new feature, but it would have been nice if it had not weakened melee relative to other strategies.


It did buff melee. Play a naga, and you'll see.


I meant to refer to monster constriction, not Na/Op constriction. That said, having played a Naga in the Snake Pit with constriction, I think even for Naga players in the Pit, spellcasting has become stronger relative to melee.
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Post Wednesday, 8th February 2012, 05:33

Re: constriction balance

XuaXua wrote:
eeviac wrote:if I don't have blink, I don't go into snake pit. that place is terrifying.


Used to be a lot easier, now I think it's almost Tomb-esque.


Tomb is far, far, far worse for melee characters than Snake Pit. Well, primarily due to monsters being much higher Tier and Torment + Tormenting Demon summons in Tomb. Well, I guess some strategy involving Silence can work since the undead can be silenced, unlike demons. Still, Tomb requires a lot of thought before you venture in (and while you're in). Snake Pit is fine, really. I hadn't had any problems so far since constriction was added with my characters in there. Tomb keeps scaring the hell out of me. Snake Pit for casters? I guess if you get caught you might have trouble if you don't have some translocations tools. I wouldn't really know, I play melee characters exclusively.

About monster constriction; The game is manageable as always but there's one thing... Yes, I'm looking at you tentacle monstrosities... These guys are now extremely dangerous. I guess that was the goal of the devs, to make the monster stand out. Yet it feels brutal that even on very well equipped 27 level heavy armour character they get more than half your health away each while a pack of Draconians in Zot barely does that (unless it involves drake summon and smiting spam, I guess). Well, in the end, I wouldn't mind if they kept dealing this much damage, I guess we need some "screw you pure melee, learn to use ranged or spells, or deal with having to use berserk or whatever you have to to kill this one" monster in the game. And I'm not being sarcastic at all. 8-)
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Post Wednesday, 8th February 2012, 16:28

Re: constriction balance

Tentacled monstrosities are speed 9, so unless you are a naga you have the option of just running away and not bothering to kill them (unless you get one in swamp and you don't have flight/lev).
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Post Sunday, 12th February 2012, 02:15

Re: constriction balance

eeviac wrote:if I don't have blink, I don't go into snake pit. that place is terrifying.

Snake is not that bad. First time I went into Snake I was XL14 and I came out with the rune.

I didn't have blink.

IMO Elf and Shoals are still much harder.

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