Gloves vs Gauntlets / Hats vs Helmets


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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 23rd January 2012, 05:26

Gloves vs Gauntlets / Hats vs Helmets

Is there supposed to be a difference between these besides flavor?

I know Hats can be worn when you have horns and Helmets give +1 AC vs Hats, but I don't see much of a difference between Gloves and Gauntlets.

And apparently now some helmets (horned and spiked) allow for extra horn-based attacks, right?

I would assume Gauntlets would give +1 AC over Gloves, but penalize spellcasting.
Was that intended and never implemented, or implemented then revoked?
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Tomb Titivator

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Post Monday, 23rd January 2012, 08:33

Re: Gloves vs Gauntlets / Hats vs Helmets

I've complained about the names before. Apparently people enjoy having a dozen different items that are exactly the same and there are plans to add fingerless gloves, spiked gloves, golden gauntlets, and many others too because confusing people is fun! At least they've fixed the search function so searching for gloves also returns gauntlets.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 23rd January 2012, 13:15

Re: Gloves vs Gauntlets / Hats vs Helmets

Flavor is fine, but when adding variety in a game like this, you should always add utility as well.
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Blades Runner

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Post Monday, 23rd January 2012, 13:24

Re: Gloves vs Gauntlets / Hats vs Helmets

There are a lot of variations in headgear. Hats/Caps/Wizard Hats are all wearable with horns, and have -1AC vs. helmets. There are some variations in which egos they're eligible for, but otherwise the differences are cosmetic only. Helmets come in lots of "flavors". See http://crawl.develz.org/info/index.php?q=helmet

Gloves/Gauntlets distinction is purely cosmetic (Henzell implies it was added circa .6), but I'd be in favor of removing the base AC bonus for gloves, and/or giving gauntlets roughly buckler level spellcasting penalties, as per XuaXua's expectation above.

Note that a lot of this is already proposed on the dev wiki here: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:item:armour:armour_general

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Post Monday, 23rd January 2012, 14:09

Re: Gloves vs Gauntlets / Hats vs Helmets

IMO having different names for the same item would be fine, if there were no actual differences for any aux armor slot. If it's clear that anything that goes in that slot is the same base item it's not that confusing for it to have multiple names. Of course there's not really any benefit or anything interesting or flavorful about it either, so might as well just call anything that goes on your hands the same for the sake of clarity (artifacts can do their own thing of course).

Now for actual differences between base items. Most slots don't have different base items. Also most of the aux items you find are +0 with no ego, completely mundane and identical. Which means few upgrades, and if you find something with any enchantment at all you use that instead of whatever mundane or racial item you were wearing (nobrainer). Choices only happen when you have multiple ego or artefact items to chose from, and even then they tend to be extremely simple.

Little bonuses (like for helms) could change this in theory. The thing is, in a typical game you don't find a lot of different items to go into each aux armor slot. Usually one of the items for your head slot is clearly the best for any situation. Same for the other slots. Having to actually think about what to put into an aux slot is extremely rare. Which means adding more little differences just means more nobrainers. Instead of leaving that other +0 helm on the floor, you replace your old +0 helm with the new horned +0 helm you found because it's strictly superior in a way that is probably never going to matter to your character unless it's very early in the game. This is not interesting, just unnecessary complexity.

The cap/helm distinction actually has potential to be useful for race balancing, but "if you are a minotaur you find fewer items for your head slot" is just not interesting at all. I think just axing caps and wizard hats would be fine.

Because of the low number of aux items for each slot found in a game I favor simplicity. Aux item choice is almost always a nobrainer, and horned helms don't change that at all. Neither do caps. One item type per slot, egos and enchantment level provide enough variety. Crawl would be a better game if all helms were the same base item.

If the base item effects were actually on the same level of relevance as ego effects this might be different (note that this is very much the case for weapons and body armors). But having extremely small differences between base items is just complexity for the sake of complexity. Aux slot base items should either be properly differentiated or unified.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 23rd January 2012, 15:05

Re: Gloves vs Gauntlets / Hats vs Helmets

JeffQyzt wrote:Note that a lot of this is already proposed on the dev wiki here: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:item:armour:armour_general


While I do love the dev wiki, it doesn't generate the discussions that it should.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 23rd January 2012, 15:07

Re: Gloves vs Gauntlets / Hats vs Helmets

Galefury wrote:The cap/helm distinction actually has potential to be useful for race balancing, but "if you are a minotaur you find fewer items for your head slot" is just not interesting at all. I think just axing caps and wizard hats would be fine.


There are some players who are victims of mutations (antenna, horns) who would disagree with you. If you have a problem with minotaurs wearing headgear, then remove their ability to do so.
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Vestibule Violator

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Post Monday, 23rd January 2012, 15:17

Re: Gloves vs Gauntlets / Hats vs Helmets

What's wrong with body slot mutations actually being relevant? Also note that most mutations don't disable the slot at level 1.
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Tomb Titivator

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Post Monday, 23rd January 2012, 16:11

Re: Gloves vs Gauntlets / Hats vs Helmets

Deformed body mutations half the base AC you gain from your body slot and matter a lot.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 23rd January 2012, 16:29

Re: Gloves vs Gauntlets / Hats vs Helmets

Having a variety of items opens up the possibility of making those items distinct later. Taking them away just to avoid having multiple item names that are functionally identical doesn't help anyone. Instead, suggest different uses for the different item types. I'm in favor of changes like making plain gloves carry no intrinsic AC bonus, but letting gauntlets keep theirs. Fingerless gloves could allow the claws mutation to keep functioning. Spiked gauntlets could grant an aux attack and bonus damage to unarmed.

Spiked and horned helms are already distinct. Visored helms prevent bite attacks, but could also protect against gaze attacks from eyes and basilisks. Branded wizard hats could be updated to have various bonuses for casting classes, with branded regular hats getting more generally useful bonuses.

Golden helms/gauntlets strike me as odd. They seem like they should be important, but they're just not. Maybe a new creature with an attack that eats players' gold? If you have on golden equipment, it gets corroded instead of the player losing gold?
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 23rd January 2012, 17:41

Re: Gloves vs Gauntlets / Hats vs Helmets

BlackSheep wrote:Golden helms/gauntlets strike me as odd. They seem like they should be important, but they're just not. Maybe a new creature with an attack that eats players' gold? If you have on golden equipment, it gets corroded instead of the player losing gold?


Should have ability to sell/trade golden equipment (made of real gooooooolllld? I love gooooooooollllld. Goldmember) to shops for gold.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 23rd January 2012, 18:45

Re: Gloves vs Gauntlets / Hats vs Helmets

Adjunct: lead helms and gauntlets with a corresponding transmutation spell to convert them to gold. :)
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 23rd January 2012, 18:50

Re: Gloves vs Gauntlets / Hats vs Helmets

BlackSheep wrote:Adjunct: lead helms and gauntlets with a corresponding transmutation spell to convert them to gold. :)


Lead headwear permanently reduces Int when worn.
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Snake Sneak

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Post Tuesday, 24th January 2012, 18:28

Re: Gloves vs Gauntlets / Hats vs Helmets

But it protects you from the attacks of kryptonite golems! :P
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Snake Sneak

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Post Saturday, 4th February 2012, 19:33

Re: Gloves vs Gauntlets / Hats vs Helmets

caps/wizard hats vs helmets also keep Monsterous species AC lower. Ogres can only wear wizard hats/caps(I think caps.. I've seen like one cap in hundreds of games), for example.

I think the different headgear have different paper doll looks too. Your character is so small it is hard to appreciate that but still.

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