Sacrifices


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Vaults Vanquisher

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Post Saturday, 21st January 2012, 23:45

Re: Sacrifices

Admittedly, people might be exaggerating the problem, but it's more like nothing will be lost and convenience will be gained. I can't think of corpse sacrificing as even being that flavorful. It's lamer than book-gifting, and book-gifting is at least a necessity as it provides the spells needed for the god to function. Maybe in the theoretical eternal hunger Makhleb you suggested it works, but otherwise all it currently does is give you one or two less evaporates and make less choices for extended.
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Abyss Ambulator

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Post Sunday, 22nd January 2012, 01:40

Re: Sacrifices

I think it might help to break things down again a bit.

Again, here's all the sacrificers: Ashenzari, Beogh, Elyvilon, Fedhas, Jiyva, Lugonu, Makhleb, Nemelex, Okawaru, Trog, and Zin.

Beogh, Fedhas, Jiyva, Lucy, Makhleb, Nemelex, Oka, and Trog all have corpse sacrificing. Jiyva and Nemelex just have it as part of a bigger whole. Beogh only wants orc bodies and Fedhas can pop all the corpses on the screen, as well as zombies with the same ability.

Ash, Elyvilon, Fedhas, Jiyva, Nemelex, and Trog have item sacrifices. Ash just wants some scrolls, Ely some weapons, and Trog books, and Fedhas fruit for some abilities. Jiyva and Nemelex want everything.

Looking at them individually now...

Ashenzari only wants Scrolls of Remove Curse and even then it's not for direct piety gain, but rather one-way resource conversion. It implements an interesting choice if you don't have tons of Scrolls of Remove Curse and you only do it on occasion, so Ash sacrifice is probably fine as is.

Beogh only wants Orc bodies, flavored as consecrating them and, conversely, dislikes it when you defile them in any way, such as butchering or raising them from the dead. Beogh sacrifice doesn't happen as often because Orcs are only very common for a small part of the game and, ideally, they'd be joining you instead of getting killed by you in order to be sacrificed. Beogh's other conduct for piety gain is killing everything, particularly enemy priests. Consecrating corpses is nice and flavorful, but perhaps could be done in a more interesting way than the standard pray over the dead body for piety.

Elyvilon wants you to sacrifice weapons in the name of pacifism. I don't play trunk, but I'm told it's going towards weapon sacrifices are really just there for early piety and cannot sustain a player. Ely's main form of piety gain will be pacification if trunk stays as it is now. If minor heal was granted for free, weapon sacrificing could be ditched altogether, though Ely followers would lose the ability to easily dispose of any dangerous weapons laying about.

Fedhas wants you to sacrifice corpses and zombies. Unlike other gods, Fedhas sacrifices everything in sight instantly and creates toadstools, which can be used for other abilities. These corpses are also an important resource for a Fedhas follow because, while they can't use them for necro-stuff, they can create spores using Reproduction, which can be quite powerful. This leaves an interesting choice of using the bodies for piety and toadstools or spending piety and the corpses for inducing explosive confusion on enemies. Fedhas has no other means to gain piety, which is a problem regardless if sacrificing stays or not because Fedhas has little to no ability to gain piety in places where there are few corpses and zombies. Some Fedhas abilities also require fruit, which can either be a very easy resource or very hard, depending on RNG, and there's no way to get more other than finding it on the ground or in a shop. But, as for Fedhas' sacrificing itself, probably fine as is.

Jiyva slurps up everything, whether you like it or not, whether it's on screen or not, whether it's even on the same floor as the player or not. Slimes spawn on their own and the player can call a Jelly at will too. Once they're on the level, sacrifice is pretty much automated without any input needed from the player. So automated that playing Jiyva means the player will miss out on loot. Followers can pray to make slimes in LOS stop slurping stuff up for a bit at the cost of piety. Because Jiyva sacrifice is automated and is a huge part of it's conduct and the choices to be made whether to worship it or not, Jiyva sacrifice is probably fine.

Lucy takes standard corpses and her only other way is to kill everything except Demons. Since corpses are rare in extended, this makes Lucy have a bit of trouble in Pan and Hell, sacrifice being present or not. However, last I heard there are plans to overhaul Lucy's conduct to corrupting altars and other stuff, so fixing up Lucy may very well already be underway.

Makhleb and Oka both like the player killing stuff and sacrificing corpses with little to no flavor attached to the latter. They have no other means to gain piety. As such, they are probably the biggest offenders here and can stand some looking at.

Nemelex I already covered above but, in brief, he wants everything. What the player sacrifices determines what kinds of decks they get, so there are some choices to be made about what to sacrifice and what to keep. Nemelex is also a good way to get rid of dangerous weapons and armor laying about the player doesn't want to fall (back) into enemy hands. Nemelex's other piety gain method is through using cards, but he doesn't gift a deck until the player sacrifices some stuff.

Trog has two sacrifices going on. First is the standard blowing up of corpses. As a god that disallows magic, the choice with a corpse is basically food or piety, unless you don't eat then it's just piety. Trog's corpse sacrificing is probably among the least interesting since if you're not hungry and don't need to run away, you sacrifice it. Now, on the other hand, Trog's other sacrifice method, burning spell books, is quite interesting and flavorful despite the fact a Trog follower isn't allowed to cast spells anyway. Not to mention tactically useful as they create clouds of fire and can be done from anywhere in the book's LOS. From killing stuff to blocking off a passage, burning books has many uses and all of them gain piety too. Corpse sacrificing here probably could use a look, but the spellbook sacrificing is probably fine as is.

And finally, Zin. Go to his altar and sacr... err... donate some gold. For much of the game, a player is going to want to keep gold for shops, so there's some decisions to be made. The downsides to Zin's sacrificing is having to trek all the way back to an altar and always sacrificing half of your total. Zin's alternative means is killing rotters, shapeshifters, and polymorphers, among a few others, and those are pretty uncommon for chunks of the game, so you'll want to give some gold sooner or later. Zin's sacrifice is mostly fine, but could use some tweaking so a player doesn't have to run from Zot:3 to Temple or wherever if they need a boost in piety.


So, in my opinion, it looks like this.

Probably fine as is: Ash, Jiyva, Trog spellbooks, Fedhas (though has other issues)
Needs some tweaks, but are almost fine: Zin
Could be made more interesting or, maybe with some tweaks to the god if needed, removed: Beogh, Oka, Makhleb, Ely, Trog corpses
Would need an overhaul: Nemelex
I think is already getting overhauled: Lucy


So, personally, I would be focused on Beogh, Oka, Makhleb, Ely, and Trog corpses in this discussion (though you may disagree). Nemelex, while he does apply, is a whole can of worms on his own and would need too much done (and done differently) to be covered in this broader topic.


Somewhat unrelated, I think that a lot of god's overall conducts could use a look at. There's way too much of "kill stuff and sacrifice other stuff and don't be idle for too long, otherwise you can do whatever". But, that's a whole 'nother topic.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Sunday, 22nd January 2012, 01:54

Re: Sacrifices

Lugonu gives piety for demon kills in 0.10, so that's not a problem.
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Tomb Titivator

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Post Sunday, 22nd January 2012, 02:20

Re: Sacrifices

Lugonu would be, by far, the easiest to get rid of sacrifices with. Instead of piety loss on banishing enemies just have piety gain but no experience gain. Then there's an interesting choice: do you want the experience and items or piety? As for Trog... I don't think there could ever be a situation where you would chose to waste a ration so you could sacrifice another corpse. Of all the ideas so far the only viable one has been minmay's idea if piety loss for not sacrificing a corpse... and I don't like penalizing the player like that.
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Abyss Ambulator

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Post Sunday, 22nd January 2012, 02:43

Re: Sacrifices

Well, I don't really touch on Lugonu because of the plans in store for her (just checked the dev wiki, altar corruption and all that are still there). I think the main delay on her is because gods' wrath needs to be adjusted since altar corruption would cause retribution. Banishment for piety gain is also already on the table as a possibility there. Sacrificing corpses was nowhere mentioned on the page, particularly the new, proposed conduct, so I assume Lugonu ceasing sacrificing corpses will happen sooner or later.
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Tomb Titivator

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Post Sunday, 22nd January 2012, 05:43

Re: Sacrifices

The more I think about it the more I feel that corpse sacrifices should be removed as they are pointless and tedious. I don't think that would be too difficult honestly... just comment out a few lines of code. Can't we at least try that? If piety is too hard to gain with those lines of code commented out then we can just up piety on kills or lower some ability piety costs... but that might not even be needed.

Is it too much to ask to at least TRY it out? It's no effort at all really just comment out the lines that allow sacrifices and see how well that works. I don't think anything else has to be done.
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Barkeep

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Post Sunday, 22nd January 2012, 14:41

Re: Sacrifices

snow wrote:It's no effort at all really just comment out the lines that allow sacrifices and see how well that works. I don't think anything else has to be done.


Well, it's open-source. Go for it!

If you don't want to recompile the code, you can also try this approach by just not sacrificing any corpses.
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Abyss Ambulator

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Post Sunday, 22nd January 2012, 17:58

Re: Sacrifices

minmay wrote:Forgot about Beogh. Those sacrifices really do mean nothing - Beogh dislikes it when you do anything else with the corpse!



Actually, don't forget Beogh. I came up with an interesting idea out of nowhere.

Beogh now only accepts sacrifices of ally Orc corpses. All allied Orcs have a 100% chance to drop a corpse. Beogh's sacrifice for praying is removed and replaced with a free ability called Consecration or something along those lines. When used, the player, and all of their Orc allies, take a moment to honor their fallen comrades. All allied orc corpses in LOS are "sacrificed" after a few turns (more corpses could make it take a little longer). If anyone in the ritual is attatcked, it gets interrupted, whether it be an ally or a player. If it is successful, Beogh may grant some piety but, more importantly, can grant blessings on existing allies and perhaps the player too via long lasting but temporary buffs (or maybe permanent stuff, but that'd probably be a bad idea). The more blessed the Consecrated orc(s) were, the more likely and more powerful Beogh's blessings will be when using Consecration.

Of course, these blessings should be weak enough that keeping your allies alive should always be better than letting them die for blessings, hence why I'd not recommend permanent stuff for it.
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Dungeon Master

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Post Sunday, 22nd January 2012, 18:14

Re: Sacrifices

TwilightPhoenix: This is a very interesting idea. It needs some additional thought: what effects to be used; how to make sure that keeping allies alive is better than having them (or some of them) killed; how to prevent players wanting to drag every ally to the site of burial. I am confident that all of these can be sorted out. As I see it, you are trying to provide a gameplay mechanic for the flavour that's already there.
Please be sure to add this idea (with or without any refinenments) to the Beogh wiki page -- I certainly won't do that.
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Abyss Ambulator

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Post Sunday, 22nd January 2012, 22:21

Re: Sacrifices

Agreed that it needs some more thought. I'll give it some additional brainstorming before I drop it on the wiki.
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Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Monday, 23rd January 2012, 01:37

Re: Sacrifices

What if you use the blood of fallen orc heroes to make non-orcish weapons or armour orcish? Or to enchant orcish items?

Vestibule Violator

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Post Monday, 23rd January 2012, 13:25

Re: Sacrifices

This has probably already been mentioned, but couldn't there just be an option (default: on) to sacrifice corpses you're standing on when you start autoexplore (maybe also autotravel)? If you're going to autoexplore you're probably not planning to come back to do something different with that corpse. And sacrificing (in a safe situation) is strictly better than doing nothing. Note that it's extremely easy to approximate this with a macro (o --> po), but there is some message spam (often there is no corpse), and the p part happens even if you cant autoexplore, which is bad. Combined with autoexplore moving to all unvisited corpses, not just to item stacks, this would remove much of the tedium. Just keep pressing o. An option for changing autoexplore corpse visiting behaviour would probably be good, I suggest three variants: never, only when worshiping a god where it's relevant, and always). One little problem: corpses you stepped on during combat would be skipped. Visiting even those might be better. Also, in the early game corpses are sometimes on traps, but traps with multiple shots tend to not be much of a problem.

Of course this doesn't solve the problems of Fedhas, Elyvilon and Nemelex, but Fedhas is pretty much fine as is, and anyone worshiping Nemelex having to deal with a little tedium is fine IMO. No amount of automation is going to remove the tedium of Nemelex worship. With most weapon sacrifices not giving piety, Ely tedium is pretty much gone too.

I think it's a little sad that Kiku and Yred don't take corpse sacrifices. These are the gods that turn corpses into a valuable resource, and because of that they are the gods for which the decision whether to sacrifice or not would be interesting. Of course this begs the question whether a decision as frequent as what to do with a corpse should require much thought.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 23rd January 2012, 17:57

Re: Sacrifices

Personally, I don't find corpse sacrificing to be onerous. Your god is granting you favor for continued devotion outside of your normal actions. If all you have to do is kill things to gain favor, you're only doing what you'd already be doing without your god.

Fedhas and Nemelex have very different sacrifice mechanics that are unique and flavorful. They're very much on theme with the idea of devotion to your deity, and working with your god to change the world. Now that you can turn off automatic sacrificing of classes of items, I really don't think Nemelex needs a change. He offers you the unique opportunity to really sculpt your relationship with your god. Fedhas allowing you to decompose all corpses in LOS and the effect hitting zombies is pretty sweet, and doesn't need improving. Fedhas in general, is a different story. I find him hard to use, and so stay away from him.

Beogh allowing you to consecrate fallen orcs is, I think, the most flavorful of the corpse sacrifice mechanics. It fits in very well with the concept of uniting orcs under one banner. I really, really like the idea of your orc allies joining in on the ceremony, but agree that it would be difficult to implement an effect that is nice enough to be useful, but weak enough that players won't be encouraged to sacrifice their own followers. Maybe healing effects for your allies? Beogh also has a thing for orcish equipment, so maybe he could take that along with the consecrated corpse? It fits the idea of a warrior's funeral.

I like the idea of Trog taking corpses of creatures you kill while berserk. In my mind, the player is praying to him constantly while berserk, and in a religious fervor would devote all kills to his god. You may be awfully hungry when you snap out of it, though. Maybe the hunger cost could be reduced depending on how much you kill while berserk?

Okawaru seems to have an equipment thing going on, what with his gifts. Maybe you'd only get piety for sacrificing corpses of armed and armored opponents along with their gear? He also seems to like exceptional people, so something involving uniques maybe? This seems tricky to work out and balance.

Makhleb? No ideas. His thing is destruction. The only ideas that are springing to mind involve exploding corpses. Whether this would be random or at the player's direction, I don't know. I like the concept of a body exploding when the player hits it and showering him with blood that revitalizes him, though.

I like the recommendation of offering Lugonu piety for banishing foes. You're giving up XP, equipment, and potential food or necromancy sources, along with the activation cost of MP and hunger. Maybe keep a small piety cost that gets made up by banishing tougher foes with better equipment?

For Yred and Kiku, I'm thinking of an ability to "bank" corpses somehow. It seems like it would be difficult to implement and balance, but I think it would add flavor to Kiku's corpse delivery in particular.
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Abyss Ambulator

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Post Tuesday, 24th January 2012, 03:48

Re: Sacrifices

BlackSheep wrote:Beogh allowing you to consecrate fallen orcs is, I think, the most flavorful of the corpse sacrifice mechanics. It fits in very well with the concept of uniting orcs under one banner. I really, really like the idea of your orc allies joining in on the ceremony, but agree that it would be difficult to implement an effect that is nice enough to be useful, but weak enough that players won't be encouraged to sacrifice their own followers. Maybe healing effects for your allies? Beogh also has a thing for orcish equipment, so maybe he could take that along with the consecrated corpse? It fits the idea of a warrior's funeral.



Well, I'm think along the lines of things like, if you lose a Warlord and Consecrate him, Beogh might upgrade some of your followers to Warriors or one of them to a Knight. Sure, now you have some Warriors or a Knight, but you're still down a much stronger Warlord, so you wouldn't want to do that on purpose. But on the other hand, if a dragon ate him despite your best efforts, you'd at least get some of the "investment", for lack of a better word, back. And you wouldn't be able to game it by ditching everyone except your Knights because, if nobody qualified for the upgrade to a Knight, then you'd just lose out instead of your existing Knight getting a buff.
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Dungeon Dilettante

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Post Thursday, 2nd February 2012, 19:34

Re: Sacrifices

I have to disagree with the corpse sacrificing being boring. Sure, it can be tedious sometimes (autosaccing is a good idea), but there's nothing like butchering a room full of bees and then sacrificing them all in a big bonfire of burning corpses.
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Dungeon Master

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Post Thursday, 2nd February 2012, 21:06

Re: Sacrifices

minmay wrote:Properly automating it would do this too, but simply making autoexplore go to and sacrifice every corpse is not sufficient; as I said, this would result in needing to do a lot of things manually.

What things? Like butchering, eating, distilling, raising, etc? Removing sacrifice doesn't help either, you'd still have to do those things. As I see auto_sacrifice, you'd start by doing the specific stuff you want with one or several corpses, then press o to sacrifice the rest (or O because it would work well with auto_loot). You could have a confirmation prompt before sacrificing an edible corpse when hungry, but it might not even be necessary.

minmay wrote:Beogh, I've already explained. He penalizes you for doing anything with an orc corpse other than sacrificing it, so there's no point in having the sacrifice.

And as already explained to you, the main reason for keeping Beogh sacrifice is theme. I know you don't care about flavour, but since many players and devs do, you shouldn't just ignore it and dismiss comments about it when suggesting changes.
Offtopic note: since you're only interested in the strategic and tactical aspects of the game and flavour just gets in the way for you, you might enjoy playing Go. This isn't sarcastic, it's a serious and honest advice.
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Snake Sneak

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Post Saturday, 4th February 2012, 19:09

Re: Sacrifices

Corpse management is actually quite interesting for those with Fast Metabolisms IMO.

Also anyone who uses corpse-related skills (necromantic spells come to mind) and worship Okawaru would be completely fucked if you had to take a piety hit for every corpse. Same for makhleb necros etc..

Snake Sneak

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Post Saturday, 4th February 2012, 22:51

Re: Sacrifices

True. Would praying for corpses under penance increase your penance count or what :O?

Also, piety gain for corpses would probably need to be reworked to be a specific increment rather than a certain chance of piety gain per corpse.. Unless Praying only had a % chance to lower your piety.

Still it'd really suck if you needed 4 of the corpses your god just stole, run bad on the piety by gaining 0, or 1, and praying 4 times resulting in -4 piety :O

Or if you were in-combat and needed to make use of a corpse, you'd have to spend another turn praying for it back....

Swamp Slogger

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Post Sunday, 5th February 2012, 12:53

Re: Sacrifices

Some ideas-
General- I would absolutely love if one god got a high tier ability(maybe trog or okawru since they have trouble end game) called capture or something of the like. Concept being you basically just capture(enslave, but with downsides) an enemy monster and then perform a ritual that takes a couple of turns to gain piety and bonuses...killing the monster. It'd be an extremely powerful spell for a god who tends to not give them, and gives those gods a viable way to gain piety late game when they stop dropping corpses. The idea of live sacrifices seems thematic enough, and if you make the ability based on some other check than MR it works fine. Obviously it'd need some balanced because eliminating a single powerful enemy from a fight, and then insta killing them just before the next for piety and combat bonuses is pretty strong.

Trog- just remove standard sacrifice. Instead make corpse sacrifice take longer, and then have it extend zerk. It'll still be semi random when your zerk runs out, but the idea that you can extend it manually to some extent(obviously a cap, and probably based on monster HD) would give tactical advantage as well. It should give piety as well.

Fedhas- To be honest I really think eventually all gods should have some mini goals like the planned "corrupt alters" for lugo. That in mind I really think the idea that at some point you plant some special tree as a source for her would make sense. It could gift fruit(hugely important to her game and waaay to random at the moment) and by feeding it in some way you could make it grow and gain piety. It's a tricky concept right now but at the very least the idea that you plat the sucker next to your stash and tend to it quickly for more fruit seems flavorful enough. The trick is still getting some decisions out of it and of course making it not be tedious. That said if not the idea of just planting something on each level as a way to achieve piety without corpses could help her late game a ton.

Jiyva- i reallllly think the whole mechanic needs work. They need to remove the edge scenarios where you can somehow magically avoid slimes eating your stuff, because it's just tedious and unintuitive, and embrace that somewhere somehow you're going to want to not have everything eaten. Pray stopping slimes eating line of sight rarely makes sense because they tend to finish off the level before you even see anything valuable, and is more of a crap shoot. I'd rather it just be a HUGE piety hit, to pray and have one level ignored. You'd use it for your stash, and vault ends. Obviously no slimes would spawn on that level either making things harder for you if you've been relying on them.

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Post Sunday, 5th February 2012, 14:11

Re: Sacrifices

Eji: Yredelmnul's soul collection is close to the mechanic you propose (not about piety gain, though).

I really like the idea that Trog should only care about corpses when raging (and then both give piety and extend rage by an amount depending on corpse). --> To the wiki, please!

Fedhas: getting fruits _from_ the god is out of the question (well, someone else can now do anything with Fedhas, but thats how I saw, and see, it). You know that food acquirement under Fedhas will give fruits? I also think that praying with Fedhas is very much a non-issue and that Fedhas makes more interesting uses of corpses than other gods.

Jiyva is intentionally a niche god. You accept that stuff gets eaten and you get something in return. Diluting this concept will lead to a less interesting god. Not all gods need be equal and if Jiyva is a challenge god (which she is not very much, in my opinion), then so be it.
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Dungeon Master

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Post Sunday, 5th February 2012, 22:08

Re: Sacrifices

minmay wrote:I thought of a way to improve that proposed auto-sacrifice mechanic a bit: put it on p instead of o. That way you could use o to check piles without sacrificing the corpses in them.

Great idea. But sometimes, you also need to check piles to find corpses. So here is how it could work:
Press p. If you're standing on a corpse, it is sacrificed and that's all. If not, then you start a greedy explore and go for known corpses and unchecked piles. When you reach a known corpse, you sacrifice it and the auto sacrifice continue. When you reach an unknown pile, if it has a corpse, it is sacrificed but the auto sacrifice stops anyway, so you can check the loot. When there's no more unknown piles and corpse, it stops.
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Tomb Titivator

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Post Sunday, 5th February 2012, 23:09

Re: Sacrifices

I've asked this in a few places but no one seems to know: is it even POSSIBLE to move over every pile automatically? That has so many applications beyond just automatically sacrificing things and I can't seem to find any LUA scripts to do that. At the moment you only seem to be able to automatically move over piles that have 2 or more items in them.

Dungeon Master

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Post Sunday, 5th February 2012, 23:14

Re: Sacrifices

snow wrote:I've asked this in a few places but no one seems to know: is it even POSSIBLE to move over every pile automatically? That has so many applications beyond just automatically sacrificing things and I can't seem to find any LUA scripts to do that. At the moment you only seem to be able to automatically move over piles that have 2 or more items in them.

Not as far as I know, a patch for that functionality as an autoexplore option would definitely be welcome.
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