Out Of Depth (OOD)

[XuaXua]

I figured I'd make a thread in Game Design for everyone to ask whether specific monsters are out of depth (OOD).

I was inspired to make this thread after discovering the 4 Jelly-surrounded altar of Jivya on D:2.

Was that OOD? I took care of them, but felt it was.

[danr]

I'm not sure how this fits the forum, it sounds more like advice being sought. Or are you suggesting changes to OOD monster generation?

[XuaXua]

I'm asking, from a game design perspective, if the game is generating things that are out of depth when it shouldn't be, like placing a 4-jelly altar of Jivya on D:2.

And I made the thread for others who also might be "um, why is this manticore on D:3?", etc.

Sort of a catch-all to either get someone to explain why it is ok to have an OOD at said level, or to say "no that isn't OOD", or to say "oh yeah, no that is totally a bad design, you should make a bug about it."

To me, this isn't a question of advice, it's a question of design.

[dpeg]

The altar is clearly not OOD: jellies are slow and pose a strategical rather than a tacital threat.

"I'm asking, from a game design perspective, if the game is generating things that are out of depth when it shouldn't be..."
The philosophy section of the manual explains why OOD monster generation is intended.

[galehar]

I have no problem discussing the concept of OOD here, but I don't want this thread to turn into an endless stream of "I ran into an ancient lich on D:2, is it OOD?". Thus, I've changed the thread title.
Let me explain a few things about OOD. First, uniques and vaults have a fixed depth range, so they can't be OOD. Depth for uniques are in dat/des/builder/uniques.des and vaults are in dat/des/portals/* and dat/des/variable/*
Now, the concept of OOD isn't clearly defined in the source. Each monster has a default depth where it is the most likely to spawn, but it can easily spawn in a 5 level range. If it spawns more than 5 levels shallower than the native depth, it is considered ood by the pick_random_monster function. To be worthy of a note, the level difference need to be above the ood_interesting option which defaults to 8.
If you want to know the native depth of a monster, look in mon-pick.cc, no programming knowledge is necessary for that. Now, we can discuss here the individual depth of certain monsters, uniques or vaults, or the general algorithm for picking monsters. If you just want to know the native depth of a monster or if it is ood in your game and you're too lazy to look it up yourself, please do it in the advice forum.

[Kate]

I've only ever run into issues with the OOD timer once, and that was after spending a pretty huge amount of time on one floor killing a gnoll fort, with liberal use of berserk and resting off exhaustion: 1. MarvinPA the Skirmisher (L7 HECr), blasted by an ogre mage (bolt of cold) on D:3 on 2010-02-09, with 1117 points after 10848 turns and 0:25:03. A little annoying, but sort of reasonable considering I was up to 10K turns. I'm pretty sure I've never particularly noticed OOD spawns (due to the timer at least) elsewhere.

[XuaXua]

The altar is clearly not OOD: jellies are slow and pose a strategical rather than a tacital threat.

"I'm asking, from a game design perspective, if the game is generating things that are out of depth when it shouldn't be..."
The philosophy section of the manual explains why OOD monster generation is intended.

I had no problem (well, a little problem) taking out the jellies; it is just that after so many game plays I had never encountered one, let alone four, of them on D:2 before. Walking around expecting maybe Gnolls and seeing 2 jellies rushing towards me (didn't see the altar yet) I had to check the event log backwards to see if anything got slurped.

It was just really unexpected and I figured I'd (1) see if it was a design problem and (2) get something generic-ish going here regarding any OOD issues (if I had found one or for others to use).

[Laraso]

I have to agree with Minmay on the OoD timer thing. I started playing in 0.5.2, and while there were other unbalanced things back then which I know now (AC), I used to enjoy playing Mummies from time to time to take a break from the generic "You finished exploring the level! If you don't go downstairs now you will die of starvation!". There is no reason that anyone other than a mummy would want to go back to a previous level other than to visit a stash, but when I went straight from 0.5.2 to 0.7.1 I quickly found that after exploring a level with a Mummy I needed to go downstairs just like anyone else, otherwise I might perish (and I have) from some hideously OoD monster on D:1. I've completely stopped playing Necromancers since then.

Some of the above may be opinionated

[XuaXua]

I quickly found that after exploring a level with a Mummy I needed to go downstairs just like anyone else, otherwise I might perish (and I have) from some hideously OoD monster on D:1. I've completely stopped playing Necromancers since then.

Rather than a solid 5000 turns (it's 5000, right?), could the timer be adjusted to depend on the race and/or class played?

[galehar]

I quickly found that after exploring a level with a Mummy I needed to go downstairs just like anyone else, otherwise I might perish (and I have) from some hideously OoD monster on D:1. I've completely stopped playing Necromancers since then.

Rather than a solid 5000 turns (it's 5000, right?), could the timer be adjusted to depend on the race and/or class played?

I don't know where you got that number. The formula is not that simple (as usual). And I think it mostly depends on depth. And why would it depends on player species?

[XuaXua]

I quickly found that after exploring a level with a Mummy I needed to go downstairs just like anyone else, otherwise I might perish (and I have) from some hideously OoD monster on D:1. I've completely stopped playing Necromancers since then.

Rather than a solid 5000 turns (it's 5000, right?), could the timer be adjusted to depend on the race and/or class played?

I don't know where you got that number. The formula is not that simple (as usual). And I think it mostly depends on depth. And why would it depends on player species?

1) I have no idea where I got that number; somewhere I read that it was about after 5000 turns on a level, OOD monsters would spawn. Not sure where that was, but that's the number I've got in my head for it.

2) Species/class was in reference to the text I quoted from Laraso who mentioned Mummies and Necromancers being affected more for whatever reason.

[galehar]

The OOD spawn after a long time spent on a level has been added specifically to prevent mummy scumming. So we certainly won't special case them out of it. I have no idea why is talking about necromancers. Maybe he just liked to scum with MuNe.

[Curio]

so basically because of mummies every other specie live in a fear of timed ood. Pity

[XuaXua]

so basically because of mummies every other specie live in a fear of timed ood. Pity

What's the selection process for an OOD monster?

Meaning, should I eventually expect Titans on D:3, or should I be OK with Hill Giants?

[galehar]

so basically because of mummies every other specie live in a fear of timed ood. Pity

You really live in fear of timed ood? If you move on after clearing a level, you shouldn't have any problem.

What's the selection process for an OOD monster?

Meaning, should I eventually expect Titans on D:3, or should I be OK with Hill Giants?

  Code:

const int new_level = lev_mons + random2avg(27, 2);

It rolls a d27 twice and average the result which is then added to the current depth. Then you die