Turn Traps&Doors into Awareness skill

[SinsI]

Right now Traps&Doors skill is ridiculously weak and useless - If I were to start a character with Lvl 27 in T&D, I wouldn't be excited in the least - starting with even lvl 10 in every other skill is a whole new universe of brokenness. Actually, that character would be much weaker than every current starting character because he wouldn't be able to train useful skills as fast. So this skill must be buffed, and seriously.

One of the main effects of this skill is letting you notice secret doors and traps. It is thus logical to extend it to notice other things as well:
1) see further in the dungeon (noticing monsters before they even have a chance to notice you)
2) see through fog/vapor clouds
3) a chance to notice invisible monsters. If you notice one, it should display "some monster here" that you see right now with antenna mutation if you sense a monster behind a wall.
4) a chance to act normally under confusion, and maybe even recover faster from it
5) notice a generic degree of magic in weapons, armor and jewelry - just like "glowing" and "runed", only with additional names that describe the extend of its glow. You can't determine the nature of the enchantment, though, so Dam+5 and Dam-5 are of the same tint.
6) take a glimpse at the immediate surroundings in the level before/above stairs prior to ascending/descending (so that you don't walk right into a horde of monsters).

[XuaXua]

I've seen this awareness request before elsewhere.

One of the problems with having too many skills (or not enough skills) is experience dilution; it is not necessarily easy to even train Traps and Doors high enough to get a 27 in it (you have to have enough unsprung traps and undiscovered secret doors available), and it does become quite situational.

Of your factors, most of them are flat bonuses; I'd rather see an effect results massaged based on success rate (can only see X deep into fog, knows a monster is present or general direction (given a 9-square "radius" etc.) .

I do want some form of magic rank detection, and even posted a thread about it, but I'm not sure this skill is the place for it.

[mageykun]

Right now Traps&Doors skill is ridiculously weak and useless

You've never had a good character killed by an unexpected Zot trap, have you?

There's a reason the divinations school was removed. There's a reason we lost rods of divination. There's a reason Ash is so popular. The ability to detect threats, especially traps, is incredibly powerful. Training traps and doors is essential for pretty much every character. Sure, you don't want to take take it all the way to level 27, but that's true for lots of skills. You prioritize.

Piling more abilities into an already important skill will only make it more critical- especially since some of what you're suggesting has tactical applications. This will just make training t&ds more of a no brainer, and increase the penalties for builds that are slow to get it going.

Comments on your individual points:

1) I see variable LOS based on a skill being a nightmare. Ranged attackers and casters will be ridiculously penalized until they get it trained up. Stabbers and mele fighters will do everything they can to keep it low, and stumble into every trap as a consequence (I wouldn't call that an 'interesting' choice, myself). Also, train LOS too high, and you've exposing yourself to considerable danger in areas where things can smite (will make Tomb and Zigs way worse). Not to mention possible display size problems on small monitors if LOS gets much bigger than it is now. No matter how you slice it, I see it being a nuisance that will require micromanaging.

2) LOS for players / monsters is shared. If you can see them through the cloud, they can see you too. Again, this will encourage micromaging, with some people trying to keep the skill low so they can still use smokescreens effectively. I really don't like anything that penalizes players for training a skill.

3) There are already lots of ways to deal with invisible threats.

4) At high levels, this would trivialize one of the most dangerous status effects in the game, and remove interesting choices you're supposed to make to protect yourself.

5) ...isn't this what Ash is for?

6) Seems too powerful to me. Getting stair ambushed is just one of those risks you have to take. Although, if I remember right, this was recently improved by forcing you to get in the first turn when you come down the stairs- ie, you won't die before getting a chance to try something, even if you'll get killed immediately after (someone say something if we never implemented this change).

[galehar]

The stair ambush changed hasn't been implemented. The YASD that initiated the discussion was actually wrong. I'm pretty sure that it is not possible to get killed on the turn you enter a level for the first time. Monsters are generated asleep, so the worst they can do is wake up and shout.

[XuaXua]

5) ...isn't this what Ash is for?

Not unless you like god swapping.

Not a fan of making magic detection part of an "Awareness" skill, but I do I make my arguments for a magic detection scroll/spell here.

[TGW]

The stair ambush changed hasn't been implemented. The YASD that initiated the discussion was actually wrong. I'm pretty sure that it is not possible to get killed on the turn you enter a level for the first time. Monsters are generated asleep, so the worst they can do is wake up and shout.

Waking up and shouting doesn't take monsters a turn.

[SinsI]

1) I see variable LOS based on a skill being a nightmare. Ranged attackers and casters will be ridiculously penalized until they get it trained up. Stabbers and mele fighters will do everything they can to keep it low, and stumble into every trap as a consequence (I wouldn't call that an 'interesting' choice, myself). Also, train LOS too high, and you've exposing yourself to considerable danger in areas where things can smite (will make Tomb and Zigs way worse). Not to mention possible display size problems on small monitors if LOS gets much bigger than it is now. No matter how you slice it, I see it being a nuisance that will require micromanaging.

2) LOS for players / monsters is shared. If you can see them through the cloud, they can see you too. Again, this will encourage micromaging, with some people trying to keep the skill low so they can still use smokescreens effectively. I really don't like anything that penalizes players for training a skill.

It was specifically mentioned that this extra LOS should not be shared with monsters: " before they even have a chance to notice you".

The fact that T&D might become useful for ZOT traps are really irrelevant for most of the players. Having a skill that only hurts your characters till the very-very-very endgame is a bad game design.

The stair ambush changed hasn't been implemented. The YASD that initiated the discussion was actually wrong. I'm pretty sure that it is not possible to get killed on the turn you enter a level for the first time. Monsters are generated asleep, so the worst they can do is wake up and shout.

Not necessarily "first time", just first time from this particular set of stairs. You can enter the level from a different stairs and be immediately attacked/followed by monsters near you. Hello, Mr. Sigmund.

[XuaXua]

The fact that T&D might become useful for ZOT traps are really irrelevant for most of the players. Having a skill that only hurts your characters till the very-very-very endgame is a bad game design.

Someone had obviously never encountered the Zot traps in Orc, Lair, Xom areas or via Deck of Dungeons.

[OneTrueFelid]

Zot traps will appear all over the place, not just in Zot. Blade Traps can be a pain in the butt if you don't have decent EV. T&D is fine as is. If it's extended we're talking about, you're going to want maybe even just a few levels for Tartarus. Bugger Ereshkigal and her hide and seek!

[galehar]

The stair ambush changed hasn't been implemented. The YASD that initiated the discussion was actually wrong. I'm pretty sure that it is not possible to get killed on the turn you enter a level for the first time. Monsters are generated asleep, so the worst they can do is wake up and shout.

Waking up and shouting doesn't take monsters a turn.

Right, sorry about that. So, yes, it's totally possible to get killed on the turn you enter a level. It's also possible to get killed by an unexpected crystal spear in the face from Erolcha after turning a corner. It's also less likely to happen if you have trained stealth, dodging or armour. I'm still not convinced that there's a problem that needs to be addressed. Show me morgue files if you think otherwise

[smock]

I think it's a bit funny that T&D is rarely trained very high. I don't think I've ever trained it beyond 10, except in the late game with Ash (when it's not needed, or at least that was my understanding).

Also, "train this or die without a chance to respond" might not be considered superb game design. zot traps, being "shafted" down 3 levels into a yaktaur pack, low-level abyssing and chain paralysis, are all reasons to train skills or build resistances, but they're not fun particularly threats for me. That's because they can doom a player. (Doom might be too strong a word but it can be close to that at times.) I'd prefer other negative outcomes to having a small chance of being doomed.

I am sympathetic to the argument that there are too many skills. Perhaps combining T&D with something else would be a decent improvement. But I don't really have any great ideas as to how combine it with anything.

[Stormfox]

I think it's a bit funny that T&D is rarely trained very high. I don't think I've ever trained it beyond 10, except in the late game with Ash (when it's not needed, or at least that was my understanding).

I think that one more fundamental problem here (if it is indeed a problem, keep reading) is that there is a pretty sharp point of diminishing returns with most skills. Yes. the skill maximum is 27. But for many non-magical skills (and even some magical ones), there's a point where further advancement doesn't buy you much.

About level 10 in T&D is enough to get a good rate of passive detection on traps. Beyond that each new level of skill doesn't get you too many more percentage points, so you might as well turn it off rather than let it soak up more XP.

Weapon skills suffer from this too. Once you have enough skill to get your best weapon down to minimum attack delay, you turn it off and leave it off.

Magic schools? (Not counting Spellcasting.) If your success rate is Excellent and stays there even if you lose a point or two of Int, you're only increasing the power for the most part by improving your skill -- but at the higher end it takes a lot more increase of power to have tangible results. So your LCS is only doing 9d20 instead of 10d22? You're not missing out on a whole lot of damage. If you're not aspiring to cast level 9 spells, it's not vital to try to max out a magic school or two.

Some skills do retain a decent growth curve on their benefits. Fighting and Spellcasting, of course. Dodging, Armour, Shields...never hurts to have one more level of those, except in the opportunity cost of not training other skills.

Don't get me wrong, I do like the idea of diminishing returns, as it falls into the design philosophy of discouraging mindless grinding. If there was always something measurable to be gained from getting one more level in a skill, you'd be tempted to grind them all up as far as patience allowed.

[Jeremiah]

The stair ambush changed hasn't been implemented. The YASD that initiated the discussion was actually wrong. I'm pretty sure that it is not possible to get killed on the turn you enter a level for the first time. Monsters are generated asleep, so the worst they can do is wake up and shout.

I'm pretty sure centaurs (and presumably other things that move at the same speed) can wake up and shoot their bows on the first turn.

[galehar]

The stair ambush changed hasn't been implemented. The YASD that initiated the discussion was actually wrong. I'm pretty sure that it is not possible to get killed on the turn you enter a level for the first time. Monsters are generated asleep, so the worst they can do is wake up and shout.

I'm pretty sure centaurs (and presumably other things that move at the same speed) can wake up and shoot their bows on the first turn.

Yes I know, TGW already said so. Sorry about the misinformation.

[LunarHarp]

Zot traps will appear all over the place, not just in Zot. Blade Traps can be a pain in the butt if you don't have decent EV. T&D is fine as is. If it's extended we're talking about, you're going to want maybe even just a few levels for Tartarus. Bugger Ereshkigal and her hide and seek!

Yeah without traps and doors you would just be waiting outside her invisible gate searching and searching while more stuff spawns on top of you. The tomb is another place that T&D is very useful. Although I admit that I don't usually train it anytime before the end of the game.