Improving Xom!!!


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Abyss Ambulator

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Post Monday, 4th June 2012, 21:35

Re: Improving Xom!!!

This is an old thread, but after having used Xom with several hundred MuCK, I have some feedback:
Xom is generally OK. Even after the tension change, though, his gifting is perhaps too generous:
http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/giant ... 210412.txt
http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/giant ... 030304.txt
http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/giant ... 212201.txt
This...doesn't really seem like intended behaviour. Xom shouldn't be the god of scumming D:1 forever, as fun as that is.

That's not a very pressing problem, though, since it really only affects two combos (VpCK and MuCK), and one of them is by far the worst in the game. So, while a change to that would probably be good, it's not strictly necessary. Keeping it in doesn't really unbalance anything.

More serious problems, though, are these:
1) abyssing
2) instakills
3) summon 1
Most (or all) of these are caused by severe miscast effects. None of them should exist (note that they're generally fairly rare, but rarity is no excuse for brokenness). While Xom sometimes hindering you is part of his appeal, he should not ever kill you with effectively no chance to avoid it.

Here is an example of a xom instakill:
http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/giant ... 184041.txt
An example of a 1:
http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/giant ... 205208.txt
The simplest way to fix both of these would be to remove the chance for level 3 miscasts (which I -think- both were) at low experience levels (or ever, for that matter; having durably summoned fiends wandering around the dungeon is not fun).

Abyssing is more of an edge case, since it doesn't technically kill you instantly. However, it is unreasonable. Most low-level characters have almost no chance to survive the abyss. The three characters I linked to at the beginning of this post were incredibly well-equipped, and they all were able to work through it fairly well (one of them even survived it once, only to be sent back a couple thousand turns later). They are the exceptions to the rule. Even with these exceptions, though, Xom's high-tension effects kick in almost constantly in the abyss, and all three of them eventually fell to Xom confusion.
This is a more typical example:
http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/giant ... 015352.txt

Sending a character to the abyss is, as I said, not quite a guaranteed death sentence, but close enough that it shouldn't happen. It would even be potentially ok if it was the regular abyss, but the abyss is far nastier with Xom messing with you every few turns. Almost no characters (especially of xom) could reasonably be expected to survive the abyss before ~xl10, and it remains a significant threat afterwards. This is fine in most instances, but your god should not be one of those nasty game-ending effects.

tl;dr: Xom should not put you in instances where you will die with almost no chance to respond. Any effect that does that should not exist.
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Pandemonium Purger

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Post Tuesday, 5th June 2012, 00:23

Re: Improving Xom!!!

One idea I had for xom was to split up the confusion effect into several mini-statuses that only disable one thing. Confusion only on melee attacks, confusion only on walking around, confusion only on spells, confusion only on scrolls, confusion only on wands, etc. You could split paralysis up in a similar way, making it so xom can give you debilitating, yet not automatically lethal status effects.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 5th June 2012, 00:40

Re: Improving Xom!!!

I think Xom paralysis is from miscasts only so it is pretty rare (and it should respect stasis should you be wearing it) and it is capped at 7 turns? ... this seems not really out of line to me; Xom confusion is orders of magnitude more common and the duration is way too long, and if it is Xom-confusion instead of miscast-confusion then you can't even prevent it (so if you are a mummy you just got paralysed for 30 turns, have fun).

I am fine with Xom killing you for scumming D1 though via summoning stuff, and I am fine with him being able to abyss you even early on (the abyss itself could use some work perhaps but I think that is a separate topic). You can mitigate these effects by actually playing the game and collecting consumables/xp to use in case he tries to kill you, since I am pretty sure that you always get an action before miscast-summons do. I am not sure how I feel about him outright killing you while he is BORED (he already won't do so if he's not).
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Abyss Ambulator

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Post Tuesday, 5th June 2012, 00:56

Re: Improving Xom!!!

I meant to mention (but didn't) that the effects aren't a case of "killing for scumming D1." Things like sun and smoke demons (both deadly for scummers) are generally fine. The problem arises when he does that during regular games. The morgue I linked involved a brimstone fiend summoned while I was exploring d:2. Yes, it only happened because I play a lot of MuCK and generally spend a lot of time on early dungeon levels, but that doesn't mean it's not a problem. It just means it's more of a problem for me than it is for most Xom-ites. In the case of abyssing...there wasn't a whole lot of mitigation I could have done on that last one. I was xl11 at the time of my second abyssing, with an item set far stronger than most characters at that point. Then I got abyssed (twice) and confused, and it was over.

If preventing xomscumming is a desirable goal, then other ways can be found to nerf it. People who play normally should not be punished by scumming-prevention measures.

(I said this before, but I'd like to expand: Xom summoning hostile demons is a reasonable effect; xom summoning hostile brimstone fiends for xl3 characters is not. If a monster can kill you in one or two hits, -especially- if it's a time before you're likely to have significant tools to deal with it, it should not exist.)

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 5th June 2012, 01:13

Re: Improving Xom!!!

The tricky thing with making Xom more "fair" is you have to actually implement that. I see the current situation as being "pretty good" as far as what xom effects are possible goes and improving it would seem to me to be extremely difficult, hence I am satisfied for now.

I also don't think a hostile brimstone fiend on d:5 for instance is that out-of-line with Xom; you can burn a blink scroll to escape in the vast majority of all situations should you have one, or maybe you have summons with which you can block LOF, etc. So if you implement a cutoff how do you do it? I see problems with a turncount cutoff, an xl cutoff, and a depth cutoff because of how variable crawl is.

Mines Malingerer

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Post Tuesday, 5th June 2012, 07:26

Re: Improving Xom!!!

I am a huge fan of Zincland's POWDER, in POWDER, XOM imitates the other gods and will increase or decrease in piety or incur penance according to the other God's restrictions. This wouldn't lend itself too well in Crawl but recently some suggest a 'god of requests'. I really liked having to switch tactics with POWDER XOM on the fly rather than just do dangerous or unpredictable (and usually dangerous) things to please XOM. Rather in POWDER it felt like his whims were demands that you change your playstyle. I'd love to see Crawl XOM demand really flexible players, XOM demanding that you hit things from afar, "PLAY CATCH WITH YOUR ENEMIES MORTAL!". I'd like to see XOM take an active approach to playing with his toys, giving them his whimsical demands of them, and giving them a time period to perform them, or he will become bored and impatient of his uncooperative playthings.

My two cents.
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Halls Hopper

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Post Wednesday, 6th June 2012, 17:42

Re: Improving Xom!!!

- A controversial one : Each altar (of other gods) could have a tiny chance of being a disguised Xom altar, which would only be revealed after converting inadvertently to Xom, and hence having to choose between his wrath and his weird mood.

"You kneel at the altar of The Shining One" (...) "Do you wish to join his religion?" (Yes).
"That was an altar of Xom!" :o
Xom finds this hillarious and roars with laugh! :lol:

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Wednesday, 6th June 2012, 17:56

Re: Improving Xom!!!

god mimics

For this message the author Grimm has received thanks:
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 8th June 2012, 14:55

Re: Improving Xom!!!

If you want to curb some of that D1 Mummy of Xom scumming, just make Xom resurrect them temporarily at a very hungry level; they can't go back till they eat.
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Tomb Titivator

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Post Friday, 8th June 2012, 16:39

Re: Improving Xom!!!

XuaXua wrote:If you want to curb some of that D1 Mummy of Xom scumming, just make Xom resurrect them temporarily at a very hungry level; they can't go back till they eat.


Really don't see what the problem is with Xom scumming. Its not exactly easy and is a fun sidetrack for when playing a regular game gets to be a drag.
KoboldLord wrote:I'm also morbidly curious now as to how Shatter is abusable for 'stealth tricks'. It's about as stealthy as the Kool-Aid Man smashing through the walls and running through the room
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 8th June 2012, 17:12

Re: Improving Xom!!!

bobross419 wrote:
XuaXua wrote:If you want to curb some of that D1 Mummy of Xom scumming, just make Xom resurrect them temporarily at a very hungry level; they can't go back till they eat.


Really don't see what the problem is with Xom scumming. Its not exactly easy and is a fun sidetrack for when playing a regular game gets to be a drag.


I'm simply uncertain whether Xom appreciates it.
"Be aware that a lot of people on this forum, such as mageykun and XuaXua, have a habit of making things up." - minmay a.k.a. duvessa
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Blades Runner

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Post Saturday, 9th June 2012, 16:39

Re: Improving Xom!!!

Xom gets the last laugh either way, I'm sure he's fine with it.

Snake Sneak

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Post Wednesday, 20th June 2012, 08:21

Re: Improving Xom!!!

adamo901 wrote:
- A controversial one : Each altar (of other gods) could have a tiny chance of being a disguised Xom altar, which would only be revealed after converting inadvertently to Xom, and hence having to choose between his wrath and his weird mood.

"You kneel at the altar of The Shining One" (...) "Do you wish to join his religion?" (Yes).
"That was an altar of Xom!" :o
Xom finds this hillarious and roars with laugh! :lol:

"You kneel at the altar of Xom" (...) "Do you wish to join this religion?" (Yes.)
"WELL, TOO BAD!"
You are cast into the Abyss!
Xom roars with laughter!

Snake Sneak

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Post Thursday, 5th July 2012, 18:54

Re: Improving Xom!!!

Help why is Xom tormenting me every 300 turns.

And why won't he stop draining my stats while I rest.
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Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Monday, 9th July 2012, 15:57

Re: Improving Xom!!!

because it's Xom.
What made you happy today?
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Crypt Cleanser

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Post Thursday, 27th September 2012, 12:38

Re: Improving Xom!!!

I push up this topic to suggest the possibility to give Xom another effect on you to recover the evaporate spell.

"Your hands get very hot"
a
f - Evaporate
which potion do you want to throw ?
"You throw a potion and explodes !"
(Havoc...)
"Your hands are cooler"

The possibility to use potions to damage have been recently lost in 0.12 trunk because fulsome distilation enforced scumming and evaporate was too early learned, so that it was abusable early on. A random effect of Xom may be the best way to recover that part of the game without problems, just as a tactical possibility from time to time, and unexpected.
duvessa wrote:Christ, you can't remove anything without tavern complaining about it.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 27th September 2012, 17:36

Re: Improving Xom!!!

I don't think encouraging players to carry around bad potions because they worship Xom is a good idea.

Abyss Ambulator

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Post Thursday, 27th September 2012, 17:38

Re: Improving Xom!!!

crate wrote:I don't think encouraging players to carry around bad potions because they worship Xom is a good idea.

Is drinking a bad potion to (mildly) amuse Xom no longer a thing, then?
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 27th September 2012, 18:02

Re: Improving Xom!!!

It should be removed if the potion is identified (should as in I think it should go, I don't know whether it actually is gone because I never bother because it is not worthwhile because amusing Xom doesn't really do anything).

Making Xom amused when you quaff un-ID'd potions in battle is arguably also bad since you can "soft-ID" some bad potions in a few ways but it's at least not obviously encouraging otherwise-bad behaviour.
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