Nerf player translocations (was: Monster Constriction)

[snow]

To be honest I think teleports are a bit too common; the wand should probably be removed so people might actually have to use the ring. On a related note I don't see why the ring can't be evoked without equipping it. Can we please have it evokable from our inventories and just have it take longer to kick in? No one's going to walk around with the ring on if it makes you teleport around randomly so I think most people just carry around the ring and use it when needed.

Anyway I like player constriction and monster constriction seems alright now that I understand how it works. It's really, really bad flavor that you can't teleport out of it... why not just have a spell that stops a player from teleporting and have naga mages cast that? They can constrict too but constriction really should be separated from anti-translocation effects.

[mikee]

why not just have a spell that stops a player from teleporting and have naga mages cast that?

If only they had a spell that does that.

[Jeremiah]

How about an "Aura of Stasis" spell that works in a shrinking radius around the monster like Silence, but prevents teleportation, hasting and slowing.

I think you'd have to be very careful about which monsters got it though, as it would make them very dangerous, so not the kind of thing that nearly every monster in a branch could have.

[greepish]

How about an "Aura of Stasis" spell that works in a shrinking radius around the monster like Silence, but prevents teleportation, hasting and slowing.

I think you'd have to be very careful about which monsters got it though, as it would make them very dangerous, so not the kind of thing that nearly every monster in a branch could have.

Just had that general idea in the the paralysis thread to hopefully replace paralysis on tough monsters, although I just considered a debuff not an aura.

Edit: Now that this is it's own thread, I think controlled blink in particular needs some work. I'd support any of the following:

-Increase level to 8
-Reduce max HP by 1 per use
-Like the orb, sometimes have -ctele reduce cblink to a normal blink, not semi-controlled. Alternatively, always.

[theclam]

I really like the Aura of Stasis idea, it would really force you to make careful tactical decisions.

[KoboldLord]

Here's my wish list:

Controlled Blink raised to level 9. It is translocation's super-spell, and by Trog you're going to pay for the privilege if you want that level of defense. Two consecutive casts should definitely put you into yellow glow, but otherwise level 9 spells can be allowed to be good.

Blink raised to level 3, possibly to level 4 if that doesn't do the job. Maybe evokable sources will even be desirable for non-heavy armor characters.

Ring of Blinking. Works just like +Blink on an artifact, but as a vanilla ring ego.

Ring of Teleport Control is now evokable, much like the rings of invisibility and levitation. The required evocations skill to get it reliable is around 12-15 or so, and it has an appropriate cost in nutrition every time.

Teleport Control spell raised to level 6, and if that doesn't work it gets removed.

Teleport Control mutation is moved to become an additional effect of Teleportitis 3, and you activate it off the a-menu like other mutation abilities.

Activating any source of teleport control causes heavy glow along the lines of Haste, such that it is prohibitive to keep it on all the time. Teleporting or blinking with teleport control active does not cause additional glow, but it does immediately end any active CTele status.

Monster spell Teleport Anchor added, applied liberally.

Holy monster, perhaps an 'inevitable' associated with Zin gets an aura that blocks translocations in a large area, perhaps the size of a silent spectre's aura.

Some monster line, perhaps gargoyles, gets a 'Sentinel' or 'Hunter' ability that allows them to scry a player that has awoken them and inform other monsters of the player's location. All monsters in a radius, and all monsters that have become aware of the player, beeline directly to the player's location. Repeatedly, if necessary.

Some high-end monsters, preferably glass cannons, get Controlled Teleport as a monster spell. Functionally inescapable unless you can hex them somehow.

[evilmike]

How about an "Aura of Stasis" spell that works in a shrinking radius around the monster like Silence, but prevents teleportation, hasting and slowing.

I think you'd have to be very careful about which monsters got it though, as it would make them very dangerous, so not the kind of thing that nearly every monster in a branch could have.

I like this as a monster spell idea. Probably useless for the player but not every monster spell needs to be a player spell.

However, this shouldn't be straight up stasis. Stasis doesn't just prevent things like haste/slow, it cancels them and gives you glow for it. An aura of stasis shouldn't cancel these effects, but merely block them from being cast, imo. Giving yellow glow is too harsh here. Maybe it should just be an aura of -Tele, and not stasis.

[greepish]

Keep in mind nerfs to blink and control teleport are direct nerfs to warpers, a class that really doesn't need nerfing.

[KoboldLord]

Nerfs or buffs to warpers are probably going to be irrelevant. If a translocations change buffs warpers, well, they can probably afford to be buffed. If a translocations change nerfs warpers, then they can be compensated by getting some other starting equipment, perhaps a weapon of some sort. If a translocations change cripples warpers beyond justification for their existence, trimming the background list is a good thing anyway. Then we can get rid of stalkers, fighters, and conjurors, just so the warper doesn't feel specifically left out.

Your background only defines you for the first fifteen minutes or so of play, at which point you've got some other random floor loot to work with and your choice of deity. Semi-controlled Blink being silly-overpowered defines you for the whole game.

[greepish]

Well in any case, I don't think a level increase for control teleport is what's needed. Level increase for controlled blink works since 8-9 puts it out of range as a strategy without some dedication, but controlled teleport to 5-6 only delays what part of the easy mid-game you can't use it, (while for warpers it takes it out of the early game for them).

I think some options might be:

-Drastically reduce duration. Maybe lasts 4-5 turns. Good for one teleport/a few blinks if you cast it right when you need it.
-Yellow Glow on second blink

[o_O]

Translocation spells with "control" in their name could be given spell power that effects the accuracy of their control and the degree of glow given. I guess spell power could also be compared to constriction statistics when trying to translocate out of constriction, although I like the mechanic of bringing the monster with you.

lvl 8 sounds about right for cblink, requiring a huge investment to cast with any reliability but not so much that you have to base the character around it.

[TwilightPhoenix]

Another idea, Controlled Blink becomes Semi-controlled Blink. You can only get full control with Teleport Control.

Also, increase the time for teleportation to kick in. Something to more like Abyss level, with Abyss tele taking even longer. Teleport is way too easy to get off right now.

Possible amusing yet dangerous miscast effect: you uncontrolled blink out of your armor, dropping it to the group or your inventory.

[snow]

I don't think teleports need to take longer. They already take a while to kick in and players are already dying while waiting for it to do so.

Unless! The ring, with high evocations, kicks in more quickly. Then there would be more incentive to raise evocations. At the moment the only reason to ever raise evocations that I know of is to use a crystal ball or cards. Though to be fair that's because most other evocables suck.

[cerebovssquire]

At the moment the only reason to ever raise evocations that I know of is to use a crystal ball or cards. Though to be fair that's because most other evocables suck.

-crystal ball
-cards
-Staff of Dispater/Olgreb
-rods
-staff of channeling
-enhancer staves
-ring of teleportation (yes, people raise evocations because they want more than Very Poor success, and very reasonably so)
-evokable blink

Many, many characters, from berserkers who want rods and reliable blinks to mana-heavy conjurers and summoners who maybe want enhancer staff melee and more ways to regain mana, already have incentives to train evocations. The ring is already pretty dependent on Evocations since you'll need high levels to actually use it as you would use teleports normally: instantly so you don't die trying to evoke it.

[absolutego]

early evokable rage or invisibility are even better than most of those.

i second most of KL's changes. some of them have been implementables for some time, irrc.

[sanka]

I think that teleport control effect is the only really overpowered translocation effect. Controlled blink spell is really rare and high level even now, and if needed simply raising levels would be enough.

My suggestion for teleport control is to only allow one control per cast - so that the status immediatly expires when you actually control a blink or teleport. Coupled with the idea that the ring should be evocable, this would make semi-controlled blinks much more reasonable, as you will always need two turns for one semi-controlled blink. Sometimes casting regular blink would give better chances to survive.

I also suggest to change the spell to translocation only. Having charms as a school only makes it trivial to cast it without any or with very small translocation skill - still everybody raises charms.

[greepish]

I think that teleport control effect is the only really overpowered translocation effect. Controlled blink spell is really rare and high level even now, and if needed simply raising levels would be enough.

My suggestion for teleport control is to only allow one control per cast - so that the status immediatly expires when you actually control a blink or teleport. Coupled with the idea that the ring should be evocable, this would make semi-controlled blinks much more reasonable, as you will always need two turns for one semi-controlled blink. Sometimes casting regular blink would give better chances to survive.

I also suggest to change the spell to translocation only. Having charms as a school only makes it trivial to cast it without any or with very small translocation skill - still everybody raises charms.

Removing charms also does have the benefit that warpers lose less following any nerfs

[MyOtheHedgeFox]

What about scrolls of blinking? Should they give red glow after 2 consecutive uses, too?

[mikee]

I like how nobody got my sarcasm, and now I'm part of a whole thread about a non-issue.

[MyOtheHedgeFox]

Don't tell too much jokes: people will think it is your way of seeing the world.

[Zelkelion]

I like how nobody got my sarcasm, and now I'm part of a whole thread about a non-issue.

I don't usually catch sarcasm even when it's done properly. You know. With words and intonation. So that you can tell it's sarcasm.

[TwilightPhoenix]

It's not a non-issue when, at some point in the game (that point varying character to character), every threat can be avoided by teleporting or blinking away. Or, worse, ctele or cblink away. Every threat, no exceptions. Even the new constricting enemies if you translocate before they can constrict you.


Anyway, another idea is to reduce the accuracy of a cTele the farther away you try to teleport. Teleport to the next room over and you'll likely place yourself just fine. Aim at the other side of the floor and you might pop up in the wrong room entirely.

What about scrolls of blinking? Should they give red glow after 2 consecutive uses, too?

I personally think the scroll should remain as is. It's not too common and it can be burned up.

[MyOtheHedgeFox]

Anyway, another idea is to reduce the accuracy of a cTele the farther away you try to teleport. Teleport to the next room over and you'll likely place yourself just fine. Aim at the other side of the floor and you might pop up in the wrong room entirely.

That's quite nice. Add a result of division of [relative 0x and 0y coordinates of the point you're trying to teleport to] by [some number] to the fluctuation "circle".

In example, if the [number] is [6] and the target square is 11 squares to the left (x=0, y=11, for example), this makes (11 / 6 == 1 + 5/6), and so the game might add 2 squares to horizontal fluctuation (since it's to the left of you!) 5 times out of 6 and one square 1 time out of 6.
And since the relative vertical positioning is the same, there will be no vertical fluctuation.


I hope I'm easy to be understood here. However, this method makes it very... impractical when you need to teleport to the diagonals. Maybe the fluctuation should be changed with consideration of the difference between the relative x-coord and relative y-coord?

[cerebovssquire]

I think the easiest way to solve that would just to make the possible fluctuation (in horizontal and/or vertical direction) the quotient of distance traveled and some constant. So if the quotient was 8, @ who tried to teleport 24 squares could land in any square of a 6*6 area around him.
(yes, I know this absolutely defies geometry (the hypotenuse of a triangle with 2 orthagonally aligned sides which are 1cm long is sqrt(2)) but Crawl doesn't care about that in movement either, so...)

[dpeg]

In my opinion, teleportation as a tactical effect is okay since it comes with a duration. I am unhappy about two bits: (1) teleportation is the standard reply to risky situations; (2) I think that controlled teleports are too strong, and note how they're also a bit clumsy on the interface.

On (1), there is probably not much to be done at the moment although the way we've designed constriction is an attempt to shake up things sometimes. I like the aura of stasis thing as a monster effect (could be done in many ways) for that as well.

On (2), having rare controlled teleports are okay. But once you have the spell or the ring, you have it all the time. So I suggest to remove the ring property and the spell and to replace it with a potion of Control. If you want a controlled teleport, you have to quaff the potion and then kick off a teleport (if we're generous, then the other way around would work as well).
I agree that the Controlled Blink spell can be left as is.

[XuaXua]

Only read a few posts so far, but my initial reaction is:

If you are going to go and make the Controlled Blink spell level 9, remove the "it creates glow when you blink" penalty.

[mikee]

I don't usually catch sarcasm even when it's done properly. You know. With words and intonation. So that you can tell it's sarcasm.

I didn't know sarcasm could only be properly expressed orally. I will throw away all my copies of Jonathan Swift now.

In plain language: Naga mages already have a spell that prevents players from teleporting. It is teleport other. Maybe I am being overly critical, but this suggests to me that the OP spent about 0.3 seconds thinking about this topic.

[mikee]

It's not a non-issue when, at some point in the game (that point varying character to character), every threat can be avoided by teleporting or blinking away. Or, worse, ctele or cblink away. Every threat, no exceptions. Even the new constricting enemies if you translocate before they can constrict you.

You are confusing the fact that everyone can do something with the idea that everyone should do it. It's actually suboptimal to teleport every time you are threatened by something, and I rarely teleport at all after early game. In addition to the delay, teleporting has its own risk and introduces complications. It is often safer and simpler to just:

* kill whatever is threatening you, using buffs or god abilities if necessary.
* haste and/or swiftness and walk away.
* cast sputterflies and walk away.
* use fear and walk away.
* walk away normally.

So what I see in this thread is that many people are doing something suboptimal, and we need to nerf it because it's too strong.

[greepish]

I didn't know sarcasm could only be properly expressed orally. I will throw away all my copies of Jonathan Swift now.

To be fair, some stupid parents still get upset when they find their kids read A Modest Proposal in school and take it seriously. And that's with rediculously over the top sarcasm. And he published it anonymously probably just to be safe. Just saying.

[KoboldLord]

In plain language: Naga mages already have a spell that prevents players from teleporting. It is teleport other. Maybe I am being overly critical, but this suggests to me that the OP spent about 0.3 seconds thinking about this topic.

Ah, see, I also missed the sarcasm in your original post. I knew about the fact that naga mages have Teleport Other, but the spell does such a terrible job preventing the player from teleporting with it that I dismissed the possibility that you might be considering it that way.

Since apparently you're not familiar with the Teleport Anchor proposal, I'll explain the difference. Teleport Other is mostly about imposing an unwanted teleport on the player, and the teleport cancel effect that very rarely takes place is an interesting quirk that has been left in. Teleport Anchor would be mostly about preventing the player from taking advantage of wanted teleportation. As such, it would need to linger long enough that the player can't simply fire off another teleport. Totally different objectives means that it is appropriate to have totally different mechanics.

You are confusing the fact that everyone can do something with the idea that everyone should do it. It's actually suboptimal to teleport every time you are threatened by something, and I rarely teleport at all after early game. In addition to the delay, teleporting has its own risk and introduces complications. It is often safer and simpler to just:

Huh. You should probably review semi-controlled Blink in actual gameplay. I think you may have forgotten exactly how bad it is. Any risk or complications that may arise can be prevented fairly easily.

[Galefury]

To be fair, semicontrolled blink has some disadvantages. Mostly that it often degrades into a random blink in corridors, which is where you want to be for most of the game. It really shines in the Vaults and Pan and many branch ends and portal vaults, and also in some D vaults, but to use it in other open places where it works at its best (hall of zot, hell ends, slime:6) you need to use cblink, which is a level 7 spell.

But usually it's still good enough to let you escape from normal speed enemies. Even a random blink will get you some distance, and once you get to a room semicontrolled blink will reliably move you in the direction you want to go, for the very low cost of 2 mana and a little glow. An alternative to removing renewable or permanent ctele from the game is to nerf it. Blink + ctele could offer semicontrolled blinks only half or 2/3 of the time for example, turning it from a reliable escape tool into a bit of a gamble. Bigger fuzzing for long distance controlled teleports also sounds pretty good to me.

[BlackSheep]

Why not just remove the ring of teleport control and require skill in the Translocation school (or a ?blink) to get it? There's an entire school built around manipulating space, but you can replicate the all-star spells from it with a ring and some fairly common consumables or a fairly common artefact brand. To avoid players just pumping Charms, make Control Teleport a Translocations only spell.

I don't really see a problem with rings of teleportation. They're always cursed and cause teleportitis, so they're a nuisance early on. After that, they require extra actions to don, activate and remove (with the added negative of failure chance) in order to become a source of limitless teleports. If a players wants to invest in both Translocations and Evocations, I think a ring slot is a fair price for evokable teleports at will. If there's concern that keeping the Control Teleport spell active all the time is somehow unbalanced, maybe it could come with the penalty that contamination doesn't decay while it's active? (the various damaging/mutating effects would still go off, but you wouldn't lose glow until after Control Teleport ends)

[Tiber]

Here's a slightly re-tooled idea that's floated in my head for a while: Gravity well. This ability is lake a halo for a gravity-themed demon, and an earth-themed monster could possibly use it with a decaying area like silence. While in the field, any attempt to move away from the monster using it is slowed, and any attempts to teleport turn into a random blink towards the monster.

[Eji1700]

Since we've got a levitation topic on the front page too-
Nerf uncontrolled blink. It can land you in deep water, lava, other bad junk. Warning pops up when you try to use it when suchs tiles are on the screen or within range.

Make levitation lvl1.

Congrats. Blink is no longer as autopilot and levitation improves blink by making it significantly better, but it's not quite as easy to pull off.

[Not named John]

Why not just remove the ring of teleport control and require skill in the Translocation school (or a ?blink) to get it? There's an entire school built around manipulating space, but you can replicate the all-star spells from it with a ring and some fairly common consumables or a fairly common artefact brand. To avoid players just pumping Charms, make Control Teleport a Translocations only spell.

I don't really see a problem with rings of teleportation. They're always cursed and cause teleportitis, so they're a nuisance early on. After that, they require extra actions to don, activate and remove (with the added negative of failure chance) in order to become a source of limitless teleports. If a players wants to invest in both Translocations and Evocations, I think a ring slot is a fair price for evokable teleports at will. If there's concern that keeping the Control Teleport spell active all the time is somehow unbalanced, maybe it could come with the penalty that contamination doesn't decay while it's active? (the various damaging/mutating effects would still go off, but you wouldn't lose glow until after Control Teleport ends)

I like the idea of contamination not decaying while the cTele is in effect. It seems like it would be a bit more interesting than simply having cTele (the spell) cause glow. I don't like the first idea because it seems like a big penalty to melee characters, who are already more reliant upon consumables, while (at most) a slight nuisance to magic characters.

I strongly feel the ring of teleport control should definitely stay, but if people think it needs to be nerfed, a better approach might just be to have the ring take a while to kick in, kind of like gourmand. (If we implement variable degrees of teleport control, as suggested above, the effect of the ring could slowly scale to max power, just like gourmand. We could replace the single Tele Control dot on the character screen with three, reflecting the power of your spell or how long you have left the ring on.)

However it is implemented, the idea here would be that wearing a ring of teleport control is a strategic decision, not another item in your toolbox that you annoyingly swap in then swap out when you need to use it. Perhaps, in order to compensate, the attribute teleport control can be made somewhat more common as a randart ego. (Or the basic rings themselves can be made slightly more common, though I find one in most games as is.)


At any rate, I think we need to distinguish among a couple of different things in terms of gameplay. Is teleport control per se, as an effect, too powerful? Is the spell "Control Teleport" too powerful? Perhaps more important, HOW are they too powerful? By that I mean, we should keep in mind that teleports are not (IMO) too powerful for the early and early-mid game, during which time scrolls of teleport may be scarce and using them willy-nilly is extremely risky, but during which time they are nevertheless integral to a sane gaming experience (unless we drastically reduce the difficulty and variability of Crawl's early game, which would be a mistake IMO). If teleports are too powerful in the late game, when most characters will be swimming in scrolls and are quite likely to have teleport control capabilities, then we should be sure that our solution nerfs the actual problem. This is why I quite like the idea of adding a long-acting, stasis-like debuff (I'd say, make it ignore MR, too, like monster's polymorph spell), and I really like the stasis-field effect.

[Jeremiah]

Don't know if this has been suggested elsewhere, but what if teleportation or blinking cancelled all active buffs?

If the suggestion to make the ring of teleport control an evocable effect rather than permanent, this would obvioulsly include cancelling the ctele status.

[Infinitum]

Another solution is to just remove cT entirely and have the accuracy of translocations depend on spell power/distance (with an additional malus on current -cT levels).

[Eji1700]

I really really really strongly dislike blink, especially since you can clearly beat the game without it, and I wish it would be nerfed hard. I didn't put down everything last time so my personal thoughts would be as follows-

Blink- same level or maybe +1. Completely random. Meaning using it near deep water/lava/whatever brings up a prompt warning you that it might just kill you. This promotes synergy with fly and gives circumstances where you are not going to want to use it. It invokes some pretty heavy RNG, but I think the idea is that a talented player wouldn't make themselves fall back on this anyways if that was an issue.

Controlled blink- Level 9 and HUGE amounts of glow. Just making it 9 wouldn't be enough.

Ctele ring- I'd love if it was gone or had a chance to be wildly inaccurate. If it could be a randart only effect i'd be ok with that at least.

Ctele buff- Glowstick/gone. Honestly replacing this with something more interesting would probably help warpers and stop tloc's from being so stupid good. We've already got enough issues with buffs.

I'm ok with scrolls of blinking, and I'm 50/50 on wands of teleport.

I honestly feel that you absolutely should not be able to pinpoint blink or tele without Tloc of 15+, and I hate that warpers still feel so meh. The whole upside of starting warper should be that it IS a huge investment to have perfect blinking and that should be their reward. Warpers could be their own topic anyways.

[crate]

I don't feel like controlled blink is too powerful at level 7 (I don't even bother learning it a good deal of the time that I can do so, because it is a huge xp sink even if you already have phase shift). If it goes up to level 8 or 9 I would probably never learn it. Uncontrolled blink at level 2 is also far from overpowered, I very rarely use it especially after early game.

Semicontrolled blink is probably too good since it is only level 2 plus ring or level 2 plus a level 4 spell and it is very nearly as good as controlled blink on levels where it works.

[mumra]

I really really really strongly dislike blink, especially since you can clearly beat the game without it, and I wish it would be nerfed hard

You can clearly beat the game without spells, so maybe we should nerf all of them. You can clearly beat the game without weapons or armour, so let's nerf them too.

Sorry for sarcasm (I just don't get the reasoning); but there are a lot of different playstyles and ways to beat Crawl, and for some characters blink is an essential part of their toolkit. Yes it gets silly once you have cTele or CBlink (although you can still get into trouble, especially if you rely on it too much...)

I agree with your comment about pinpointing, right now there is no point in maxing Translocations and having CBlink / CTele increase accuracy right up to 27 would help. I'd really love to see a new Tloc spell at the high end (either moving CBlink to 9 and adding a new one at level 7, or just a new level 9 spell) to complete the Tloc progression. Although Poison needs this badly as well.