Abyss (and Banishment)

[srulz]

Am I the only one who thinks that getting Banished and the Abyss itself is way too luck-based?

I have pretty much cleared everything else in-game for 3 runes, wear stuff of MR just for the Elf 5 to get some extra jewellery for Zot run. And the first Deep Elf Sorcerer I walked into? Instantly Banished me.

I understood the general strategy there: keep on running, let demon popcorns live just to block off the bigger ones, and teleport as needed. But the exit just won't spawn for me, and before long, I'm demon meat.

The thing is, sometimes I simply don't get banished. Sometimes I got banished lots of times in a row, and found the exit quickly. The thing is, it's like entirely luck-based, and almost no amount of skill involved, especially if you got banished in your early char years. And especially if you got no Swiftness/Haste, ie a heavy armour fighter. I can stand being Tormented to single-digits. I can stand being totally owned in Shoals 5. Hell, I can stand being constricted/paralyzed to death. Since there are lots of ways to avoid/deal with those kind of problems.

But being Abyssed? It's like a slow and painful execution, with the executioner egging you on towards a tiny hope for escape. Which made it much, much worse.

[evilmike]

I don't think it's too random. I have stats to back it up too: of all my online games, I currently have 41 abyss enter milestones in total, and 51 wins.

The key is knowing what monsters have the banish spell, and knowing what strategy to use against them (aside from loading up on MR, try to disable the enemy, or block its line of fire with summons). If you do this you won't get banished much at all. A lot of my abyss entries (most, maybe) are actually intentional ones.

The only time when banishment is truly a random surprise is when it's from a distortion weapon being used by an inconspicuous monster.

If you do get banished at a time when you're vulnerable, luck is certainly a factor in getting out. But this is what makes it fun, I think. I don't like visiting the abyss, but it's exciting to have to escape it when the place is potentially fatal. The main thing is not to get banished in the first place though.

[srulz]

The key is knowing what monsters have the banish spell, and knowing what strategy to use against them (aside from loading up on MR, try to disable the enemy, or block its line of fire with summons). If you do this you won't get banished much at all.

What happen with my char is like this: in elf:5, I walk 1 step into a corridor, I got instantly banished by a Deep Elf Sorcerer who suddenly came into view.

It's hard to do anything versus that. Except loading up on MR, of course.

If you do get banished at a time when you're vulnerable, luck is certainly a factor in getting out. But this is what makes it fun, I think. I don't like visiting the abyss, but it's exciting to have to escape it when the place is potentially fatal. The main thing is not to get banished in the first place though.

The abyss's current system (1/7500 each tile generate a gate) pretty much favors a swift/hasted/flying char. Other types of chars would be at a serious disadvantage, especially because pretty much anything could spawn there.

So my suggestion: could you please make it that the longer you spend there (in turn timecount), the higher the chance that a gate would be generated? Something similar to the abyssal rune thing.

[galehar]

What version are you playing? 0.10 abyss has changed significantly, and from what I've heard, it's easier to escape (although I'm not sure why).

[evilmike]

The abyss's current system (1/7500 each tile generate a gate) pretty much favors a swift/hasted/flying char. Other types of chars would be at a serious disadvantage, especially because pretty much anything could spawn there.

So my suggestion: could you please make it that the longer you spend there (in turn timecount), the higher the chance that a gate would be generated? Something similar to the abyssal rune thing.

Have you ever considered converting to lugonu? Altars are more common than gates (you're quite likely to see one before you're dead), conversion lets you escape instantly, and lugonu isn't all that bad of a god. Wrath from your previous god can usually be managed unless you were with trog (although trog followers shouldn't get banished much since he gives you MR).

[srulz]

What version are you playing? 0.10 abyss has changed significantly, and from what I've heard, it's easier to escape (although I'm not sure why).

Latest 0.10 trunk, just downloaded yesterday.

Have you ever considered converting to lugonu? Altars are more common than gates (you're quite likely to see one before you're dead), conversion lets you escape instantly, and lugonu isn't all that bad of a god. Wrath from your previous god can usually be managed unless you were with trog (although trog followers shouldn't get banished much since he gives you MR).

With this great of a char, I will do ANYTHING to survive, including converting to Lugonu. I really will hate that though, since it will change everything significantly. But still, this time, there's not even an altar.

My point still stands I believe. All Abyss-related stuff is too luck-based.

2nd suggestion: Maybe make amulet of stasis block Banishment? Stasis is such a dangerous state anyway, as 99% of things that it blocks are beneficial to you (blink/tele/haste).

[cerebovssquire]

Beneficial things it blocks: good teleports, blinks, haste.
Bad things it blocks: bad teleports (ie Teleport Other), paralysis (often an instadeath!), slowing. It also cures slowing or cancels teleports when put on which can be very useful.
You have a weird concept of 99%.

If you are running around on Elf:5 with no or little MR on you and then complain that it's bad luck that banishes you I don't have much sympathy. You were banished because you weren't informed right about Elf:5 or because of a severe strategic error. You're on a branch end where banishment is very frequent and some enemies have paralysis and confusion.

[srulz]

Beneficial things it blocks: good teleports, blinks, haste.
Bad things it blocks: bad teleports (ie Teleport Other), paralysis (often an instadeath!), slowing. It also cures slowing or cancels teleports when put on which can be very useful.
You have a weird concept of 99%.

If you are running around on Elf:5 with no or little MR on you and then complain that it's bad luck that banishes you I don't have much sympathy. You were banished because you weren't informed right about Elf:5 or because of a severe strategic error. You're on a branch end where banishment is very frequent and some enemies have paralysis and confusion.

About stasis: oh, I don't know that it will cancel slowing/tele when put on. Thanks for telling me that.

Anyway, like I said above:
1. I had put on my MR gear
2. I got Banished on view.
I got lots of summons with me (using Yred), so I could survive (recall minions for example) if I had 1 turn to react. Paralysis and confusion is easily dealt with, for that char anyway.

[dpeg]

I don't think there's too much banishment. There is the bit about spoiler information (I don't know if you can deduce from the manual at all that MR helps against distortion) and we will address that (ideas welcome!).

Getting sent to the Abyss early enough is great for the game, in my opinion. For a number of reasons: (a) it is a complete change of pace and playing style; (b) banishment can turn seemingly safe situations into Oh Shit (tm) in a turn; (c) the danger of banishment has a small impact on what to carry (consumables and stuff) -- this could be more pronounced, in my opinion; (d) one of the Lugonu design goals was to provide another way out, at a cost, naturally; (e) since AK you can have some abyssical dry runs to get acquainted with the branch (thus reducing need for spoilers a bit).

[njvack]

I agree with the "banishment is OK" thought. By the time you're you're regularly seeing monsters who can banish you (maybe Orc:4 or Elf) you'll be high enough level to have at least a pretty good shot at surviving a trip to the Abyss. A character ready for Elf:5 can probably survive banishment.

Getting paralyzed on Elf:5 is far, far more dangerous. Any number of top-tier Elves can easily murder you before you get control of your character back.

Also, if you're going to convert to Lugonu, both bend space and self-banishment can be useful in managing the wrath of your old deity.

Early distortion banishment kind of sucks, but it's not common. I think it's happened to me one time ever, when I was being stupid taking "just one more swing" against Sonja.

[srulz]

For some reasons, I never found paralysis anything to be too much of a problem. Maybe because I would constantly avoid situations in which paralysis would be a problem though, as I'm an avid no-magic melee'er.

One thing about the mechanic of the Abyss: would the gate be generated:
1. as soon as you enter the Abyss, or
2. as you walk through the Abyss?
There is a map, kinda, so if it is the first case, then I just had to use the map intelligently I guess (add somewhat a modicum of skill to the whole thing).

Also, is there anything wrong with my first suggestion? To let the Abyss have a higher chance of generating a gate, somewhat like the rune? At least as long as I could survive long enough, there's higher chance for me to escape. As of the current situation, IMHO, if you don't have Swiftness + Flight, you're kinda screwed.

[njvack]

Also, is there anything wrong with my first suggestion? To let the Abyss have a higher chance of generating a gate, somewhat like the rune?

Unless the Abyss revamp changed this, I think this already happens.

[galehar]

One thing about the mechanic of the Abyss: would the gate be generated:
1. as soon as you enter the Abyss, or
2. as you walk through the Abyss?

Both. It's generated whenever some abyss is generated which is when you enter it, and when you reach the edge of the map (more terrain is generated and the map shifts). It's not generated on sight though which may be what you meant be 2.

Also, is there anything wrong with my first suggestion? To let the Abyss have a higher chance of generating a gate, somewhat like the rune?

Unless the Abyss revamp changed this, I think this already happens.

To be more precise, the chance for a generated cell to be turned into a rune (or a rune vault) increase with the time spent whereas the chance for it to be turned into an exit doesn't change. However, laws of probability dictates that the longer you stay down there, the more likely it is that you eventually find an exit (provided you keep moving and discovering new terrain).
Chances can be adjusted if needed, but I think it's fine that the chance for a rune increases with time and that the chance for an exit does not.

[srulz]

Chances can be adjusted if needed, but I think it's fine that the chance for a rune increases with time and that the chance for an exit does not.

Well, sorry for being blunt, but that seems like kinda backwards. For instance,

Case 1: Abyssal rune

People who want to get the abyssal rune, in most cases:
1. Go to Abyss willingly
2. Powered up enough to deal with pretty much everything in there, or simply under Lugonu
So actually it didn't matter how long they actually have to stay there (other than boredom, of course). They should be able to survive whatever Abyss throws at them, as that's why they willingly go there in the first place.

Case 2: Abyss exit

People who wants to get to the exit, in most cases:
1. Got banished to Abyss unwillingly
2. Don't care about the rune anyway
3. Almost always not prepared to deal with anything in there
So, it would matter very much to them if the chance for an exit to generate increase per time spent. They just want to live, and now they will only have to depend on a static chance. So, doesn't matter how long they are there, as long as the RNG are not willing to show the exit, then they may crawl there in for eternity for all they care.

Thus, if the chance for an exit to be generated increases per time, then this won't be the ultimate game-over for those who simply cannot move fast enough/fly over lava & deep water to cover as much new terrain as possible.

[galehar]

There's another way to look at it. If the chance increase with time, then you're much less likely to find an early exit, and early banishment is much more deadly. Because we wouldn't increase the chance with time without reducing the initial chance.

[njvack]

Thus, if the chance for an exit to be generated increases per time, then this won't be the ultimate game-over for those who simply cannot move fast enough/fly over lava & deep water to cover as much new terrain as possible.

Well, it'd depend on how fast it increases. Say exits were less common than now, but over the course of 10,000 turns, it'd become linearly more likely to find an exit, with the "as common as now" point at 5,000 turns. That wouldn't make things any easier.

Really, if you want accidental banishments to be less threatening, it'd make more sense for the exit to generate right near you, and become less common over time. It could always generate in your initial LOS, for example. But that kind of defeats the purpose.

As lots of people have already pointed out, Abyss already is not the ultimate game-over for most banished players. Teleport works, if not as well as normal, blinking works (normally?) now, and converting at a (fairly common) altar lets you just leave when you want. If the problem is "fast movement and/or levitation are too important in Abyss," then level generation can be tweaked to make this less the case. In fact, this commit from a few days ago addresses exactly this point.

[srulz]

There's another way to look at it. If the chance increase with time, then you're much less likely to find an early exit, and early banishment is much more deadly. Because we wouldn't increase the chance with time without reducing the initial chance.

Well, I was kinda hoping that you will keep the current initial chance, and also increase the chance with time

As lots of people have already pointed out, Abyss already is not the ultimate game-over for most banished players. Teleport works, if not as well as normal, blinking works (normally?) now, and converting at a (fairly common) altar lets you just leave when you want. If the problem is "fast movement and/or levitation are too important in Abyss," then level generation can be tweaked to make this less the case. In fact, this commit from a few days ago addresses exactly this point.

Interesting commit. That may actually solve the main problem here. Okay, I'll play the game more to see how the current abyss works out then, thanks.