Hexes and Charms - Balance issue for Arcane Marksmen

[danr]

I just checked out the latest trunk version last night and noticed the change to hexes and charms.

I also noticed that my new favourite class (HaAM) went from starting with "Very Good" for Corona to only having "Fair" success with the spell.

Is that intentional? Is it related to the change to hexes and charms? I hardly think Corona was overpowered.

Was the idea to tone down SpENs by making the Enchanter class tougher? Because if so it hurt my beloved HaAM...

[Strongpoint]

Idea is to nerf super school, that every caster learned

https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php? ... ents_split

[danr]

Where can I find out what spells are in each school?

Anyhow, I think Arcane Marksmen may need some rebalancing in light of the change.

On reading the dev wiki page, I can see that thought was given to this distinguishing Crusaders and Enchanters. Crusader's starting spells all ended up under "Charms". Enchanter's spells are mostly dual class hexes / charms, but they start with five levels of Hexes (SpEn in trunk).

Arcane Marksmen, however, have some hexes (corona, cause fear) and some charms (frost / fire / poison weapon) but only start with 2 levels of charms. The only spell they can cast at L1 is Corona (Hexes) which they have no skill with.

Arcane Marksmen are already a challenge class. Thematically, High Elves should be the natural fit for this class, and their ability with Corona at L1 drops from Great to Good with the changes, and Halflings success drops from Very Good to Fair. With both species it took me a few attempts to even successfully memorize Corona.

Without a reliable L1 spell, a starting AM is just a weak Hunter until he can get that spell working well. And it's not easy training with an unreliable spell and only 1 starting MP (+1 starting MP would be nice too).

[Kate]

The split was made such that Crusaders would have a book full of Charms, and Enchanters would get Hexes. Unfortunately nobody loves AM so I think they were just overlooked.

If the book doesn't get changed to have a single choice of Charm/Hex, they should just start with some Hex skill on top of their Charms.

[danr]

Yeah, I think 1-2 levels of hexes would be good, especially as their other starting hex spell is level 5 (Cause Fear).

I propose giving Arcane Marksmen two levels in hexes, and one more MP to start. They should have more starting MP than reavers, as they are more magic oriented than reavers.

And bracers of archery. Okay now I've gone too far.

[MrMisterMonkey]

see also: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php? ... ench_split

[danr]

I like the ideas posted there, but I notice it's just evktalo's personal shopping list. What are the chances of them getting in?

[galehar]

We are aware of the problem (see Kilobyte's commit message). As you can see, he's not too found of the background. But it can be salvaged, if we can find a good balance for the starting book and skills. Also, evktalo is one of the devs

[danr]

Well, I for one don't see AMs as a pointless class (as Kilobyte describes it). Underdeveloped, underpowered perhaps, but not pointless.

In my mind, this would be the archetypal class for High Elves - using bows and using magic. If they are an unpopular class, I hope there can be some openness to changing them a bit for the benefit of those of us who really like the class. For me, this class has more "romantic appeal" than any other class in the game.

So, seeing it as the "noble elven magical ranger" archetype, here are my thoughts:

- Using charms on oneself rather than hexing others seems more consistent with the nobility of this class, so I like the idea of having an enchant accuracy spell rather than Corona ("Steady Hands" or "Slow heart rate"). These guys are good with bows more than they are good at making other things easy to hit.
- Somehow, poison weapon does not seem to me to be a thing that they would use, so I'd replace poison weapon with a different spell that would be an enhanced version of the L1 spell. This would do some combination of boosting accuracy, damage, reducing ammo mill rate, or attack delay with bows. Unlike the other brands, this one would be for missile weapons only. This spell would really help define the class and differentiate from Crusaders more.
- To perfect the "book of brands" theme, I'd replace Cause fear with yet another brand. Possible alternatives:
- Dispersal
- Strike Fear
- Although I like evktalo's suggestion as well.

If the AM book was almost all branding spells, this would reduce one design problem of the class (it being optimal to cast Corona a few times, swiftness + a brand, creating a lot of prep work for each fight).

In terms of the gender-issue with the name, how about "Arcane Ranger" or "Mystic Ranger" or "Charmed Ranger" or "Enchanted Ranger". The book could be "The Book of Ranging".

[Kate]

Adding another Fear-causing spell when the existing Hex is already weak and underused doesn't seem like a great idea. Maybe AM deserve to at least get Portal Projectile, though.

[danr]

What about dispersal brand as a spell?

[Kate]

That sounds horribly overpowered (I don't really like the brand as it is, there's one hilarious vault where some kobolds give you about 80 dispersal darts which means you can irresistibly blink away every melee threat you run into for the rest of the game). Compare to the actual spell Dispersal, which is level 6, resistible, and sort of bad - there must be some happy medium between the two.

[danr]

That sounds horribly overpowered (I don't really like the brand as it is, there's one hilarious vault where some kobolds give you about 80 dispersal darts which means you can irresistibly blink away every melee threat you run into for the rest of the game). Compare to the actual spell Dispersal, which is level 6, resistible, and sort of bad - there must be some happy medium between the two.

I didn't know dispersal darts were irresistible. The spell as an ammo brand could be resistable as a function of spell power.


There are so many spells in the game, I'm sure there's something else in Charms that would suit an AM. (runs off to check ...)

I'm not sure if these are all charms, but:
Silence?
Invisibility?
Flight?
Haste?

[szanth]

Invisibility changed in the recent version I have, it's now a cross between both Hexes and Charms, so SpEn's start with it as a spell, but can't use it very reliably without also finding a Charms spell to train with. Kind of irritating to find this out after having made the SpEn and while still running off of the previous technique of "turn off everything till stabbing gets to 6, turn off stabbing and turn on spellcasting until EH is hungerless, turn off spellcasting and turn on enchantments until Invisibility is Very Good". I kept training Hexes going "Why is it still at terrible, I don't get it..."

Course that was me not fully understanding the situation, not a fault of the devs.

[MrMisterMonkey]

Silence is Air/Hex/Charm, if I recall correctly. It encourages being in melee, though, and AM is all about range.
How would Invis help AM? It's only really good (read: worth it) for stabbing.
Flight would help with their swiftness kiting, I guess, but not even AE has it, so it's a really funky choice (in a bad way).
Haste helps everyone, but it doesn't see very AM-like to me, but whatever.

[danr]

Being able to fire arrows twice as quickly definitely fits the "legendary archer" theme. What about a version of haste just hasted ranged attacks, and did not haste movement? That would really encourage sticking to the ranged attack game.

There are plenty of ways to magically boost ranged attacks, and none would be hard to code new spells for:
- increased accuracy
- increased damage
- decreased delay
- decreased ammo mill rate

It would be easy to pick some appropriate combination of these and create one or two new AM-book-specific spells.

One issue with the current Book of Brands is that all the spells are equally useful for melee, the only thing making the AM use the bow initially is the starting equipment. However, the arrows get used up so quickly it's imperative for them to quickly pick up a weapon and try to get that useful ASAP. This ironically leads the class to focus more on melee than ranged at the start and the ranged game becomes something they aspire to get back to later if they get lucky and find more arrows. So really they start as an ill-equipped and ill-trained fighter who happens to have a bow and arrows and some branding spells.

If they had a way to make their ammo last longer they'd be able to truly specialize in ranged combat from the beginning.

[MrMisterMonkey]

possibly interesting: spell that takes a turn or two to set up and another few to cancel prematurely (similar to tmut's forms), increases movement delay (or disallows movement), accuracy, damage (?), and firing speed (?)
should be hard enough to initiate/cancel to significantly hamper kiting, and hopefully make them entirely incompatible
(proposed as the first thing off the top of my head on thinking kiting alternatives, using the dull plain boosts, coupled with downsides, for AM)

[danr]

Hmm - something like a trance state where you become deadly with a bow, but cannot move (or only so slowly that it would be a very bad idea to do with a monster next to you). Very flavourful!

[szanth]

Well... this might get me hanged for what I'm about to say.

What about... allowing Arcane Marksmen fire bows without using arrows?

*chokes, wrestles against rope* Wait, hear me out! They're magical bowmen, right? So think a kind of Quincy with energy arrows. It wouldn't even break them - sure, they'd reliably have a ranged attack, but they wouldn't be able to enchant their arrows, because they aren't physical. If that's not enough, you can further limit them by saying each arrow fire costs 1mp. But again, it isn't a spell - you could program it like one if you need to, but it would be used with a physical bow they -could- enchant, like any other archer. Either it could act as a skill or you could put an item in their inventory that they have to evoke to fire off an arrow. Either it would or wouldn't train evocations, it doesn't matter that much to me.

It would really put AM's in their own niche, a unique role only they had, something you couldn't 'fake' with another class/race combo. And it would solve the problem of archers starting out as inadequate fighters until they built up enough arrows.

Heck, I don't even like archers that much, but I'd probably really enjoy playing this if it became a thing.

[szanth]

Also re: MrMisterMonkey's Turret Archer idea - I like it! Like, he hunkers down and goes into a kind of specialized archer berserk.

[danr]

I was actually thinking of something like that as well. I had just thought of a charm that while active would automatically nock magical arrows onto the string, so they could fight without using ammo. Having each arrow cost 1 MP would be more balanced, probably.

One way to balance my idea would be if the magical arrows were actually less effective than real arrows. This would provide a meaningful choice - whether to use precious real arrows, or to fire phantasmal arrows. This way the class could truly specialize in bows from the beginning which is good, because as noted elsewhere, specializing is crucial to early game survival.

The spell would quickly lose its utility though once the player met a few centaurs, unless the phantasmal arrows got better with spell power.

[szanth]

Hrm. Yeah it'd be a shame if this awesome and unique trait died off because it just wasn't mid-late game viable. There must be some way to adjust this so it stays useful. Maybe... make it so they aren't able to use real arrows at all. But in exchange, as their evocation skill (or bow skill, whichever) goes up, the power of the arrows go up with it. At a reasonable rate, of course.

[MrMisterMonkey]

I'd make a parallel with artificers: hunters get an equivalent to an offensive wand, which is great and powerful and all, but they have to branch out before running out of charges (ammo); arcane marksmen, however, get the rod of striking (which should incidentally be buffed, as it's currently laughably bad), which is weaker, but they can lean on it (and AM would have branding spells to make it useful at the least until midgame, to get a nice stockpile of real arrows)

[evktalo]

I like the turret mode, phantasmal arrow and see invisible ideas for AM. Corona can be used against invisible foes, but if it gets replaced then See Invisible would fit in nicely.

However, the ench-split is still a moving, changing thing. Today on ##crawl-dev kilobyte was considering making the branding spells Hexes, which would fix AMs. And make Crusaders dual-school, which I think they could handle.

The shopping list is just a shopping list, coding any of those isn't in my TODO quite yet.

--Eino

[danr]

On reflection, I think the key thing with AMs, more fundamental than the hexes / charms issue, is the fact that they cannot afford to make their bow their main weapon right out of the gate. If they are designed to be hybrid melee / ranged fighters they should start with a melee weapon and skill as well.

However, I think they are designed to be heavily focused on ranged combat. To really allow this to work as a playstyle they should not have to be worried about conserving arrows right from the beginning.

There are several ways to fix this:
- just give a bigger stack of arrows to start
- give enchanted arrows (fewer needed for kill and lower mill rate)
- a charm spell that eliminates or significantly reduces arrow destruction
- phantasmal arrows

The last is my preferred choice, but one of these is needed to really make the class work as designed.

After that, then we can consider the hex / charm issue, see invisible and turret mode etc., but the fundamental issue is that AMs are currently compelled to sideline their primary skill from the start due to the arrow supply issue. The fact that their branding spells are also applicable to melee weapons just makes it that much easier and tempting to default over to a crusader-style game right from the start.

[szanth]

Yeah I'm pretty excited about the possibility of phantasmal arrows. Do want.

[evktalo]

On reflection, I think the key thing with AMs, more fundamental than the hexes / charms issue, is the fact that they cannot afford to make their bow their main weapon right out of the gate. If they are designed to be hybrid melee / ranged fighters they should start with a melee weapon and skill as well.

Not really I don't think. I find they can pick the weapon and the skill up, and augment it with the branding spells, well, HEAm at least can. I think one reason why this works out ok is that building up a single ranged skill isn't expensive. I might be hallucinating, but I recall ranged skills are cheaper to train.

Phantasmal arrows may be problematic. They should be less useful than normal ammo, and easiest way to achieve that would be that they deal significantly less damage. But with Swiftness, you might still be tempted to use them in nearly any situation to conserve ammo as much as possible.

--Eino

[MrMisterMonkey]

remove swiftness from their book, encourage turret mode
now only SpAM and CeAM can kite early on, and I wouldn't worry too much about them, since any kitey problems lie in Sp/Ce, not AM
later on, ranged threats and more monsters should be enough to discourage kiting with them (not sure if they accomplish this though) and phantasmal arrows may even be worthless by then

[danr]

You know, I think I actually agree - swiftness creates a gameplay issue for AM. It's not a fun way to beat a monster, esp as it takes a few moves to get the distance needed for one more shot. It is kind of tedious. And it takes half as long again afterward to run around and scoop up all the arrows.

I'd way rather just have a character that was truly more effective with bows, instead of that. So you plant yourself and let loose your volley of death, rather than dancing around in circles to get the occasional shot in.

My current ideas:

- Phantasmal Arrows: L1 spell w/ damage tied to launcher skill. Use trains wielded launcher. Less effective than real missiles until spell power increases to certain point. Early game: useful to preserve ammo, late game: balance to make interesting choice between this and ranger trance.

- Steady Hand or Slow Heart: L2 spell, charm that increases accuracy w/ ranged weapons. Will not work if hasted / swifted.

- Ranger Trance: L3 or 4 spell, charm that reduces firing delay and increases damage. Breaks when doing any act other than firing bow or resting, and any such breaking act takes extra time. Trance has chance of breaking with major wounds inflicted on player. Creates the interesting choice - keep raining death, or quaff that potion, read that scroll, or switch to melee? Note that casting phantasmal arrow would also break the trance, so you need regular ammo to fire in this state.

- Get rid of swiftness.

[szanth]

Do want.

[MrMisterMonkey]

phantasmal arrows as a spell makes an awful lot of sense in Conj, but AM isn't about Conj; how would you fit it into a more AMlike school?
(Alternatively, make special launcher items that consume MP instead of ammo when (f)ired)

[evktalo]

Swiftness (and Haste) are problematic on their own (kind of hard to get killed by melee if you have them), so cutting them from the book and doing the opposite (turret) sounds good. "Trance" is a good theme for the spell too! Also danr, not allowing the "Steady Hand" spell while hasted or swifted is nice bit of flavour, although not crucial to the balance. But perhaps the Trance and "Steady Hand/Slow Heart" theme can be combined, and the Trance would cancel Haste/Swift.

One thing though, it sounds like the Trance was something you'd use in a tough situation to increase your power, but it'd hinder your escaping possibilities. i.e. it would be a gamble, and in Crawl making sure you can escape if the situation gets hairy is always better.

Phantasmal launchers could indeed work by costing 1 MP / missile to fire. Phantasmal branding could easily be a branding spell too, unique one in that using the launcher would cost more MP still. Not working with the Trance wouldn't come naturally then though - you could cast the brand beforehand. But I guess that'd be ok, it wasn't one of the crucial issues.

I don't like giving AM enchanted ammo, because that's what Hunters got after AM introduction to give them a bit of a perk.

edit: I guess draining-branded ammo would be kiting heaven, if they cut down monster HD too.

--Eino

[szanth]

I don't really like the draining brand. My OCD can't handle that I'm getting -less- experience for whatever I'm killing.

But it did occur to me that this Trance would possibly end up being a last-ditch thing, so maybe to counter that and encourage using it tactfully, we could make the phantasmal trance arrows penetrate through monsters like a Bolt of Cold spell.

[Kate]

One thing though, it sounds like the Trance was something you'd use in a tough situation to increase your power, but it'd hinder your escaping possibilities. i.e. it would be a gamble, and in Crawl making sure you can escape if the situation gets hairy is always better.

It sounds like it'd give you some of the Chei playstyle without all the crippling downsides (and without being done via arbitrary stat boosts), which I actually quite like in theory: increased attack capabilities in return for less escape options. Berserk also works the same way for melee users but is very useful and powerful all game, so I think it'd be a worthwhile gamble if implemented well (come to think of it, Leda's Liquefaction is another new spell that increases attack potential and decreases escape potential slightly and would probably be a good thing for AM to invest in if they could get the Earth skill. Shouldn't be in their starting book, though, and I guess it opposes all the Air charms they're likely to want).

[danr]

That's a good point about the phantasmal arrows being more conjurations-flavoured.

The key aspect of that spell is that the player would not have to worry about arrow supply. This can be achieved in other ways than making them out of thin air. Here's another way that would be more charm-ish:

Charmed Missile: This is a protective / beneficial charm that the character casts on each arrow as they fire it. It eliminates or drastically reduces the chance of arrow destruction. That alone is probably not worth a cost of 1 MP, so some damage / accuracy boost would also be appropriate. To not be too similar to Portal Projectile I'd favour a damage boost (+2)?, or a split between both (+1,+1) - is that enough to make a difference?.

Two possible themes: the arrow is enchanted to find the soft spot (which would increase accuracy and damage and reduce chance of destruction from hitting something hard, or, the arrow is enchanted to become magically more solid, giving it similar characteristics to a steel missile (1/10 chance of destruction, increased damage).

Actually, even a very good brand (steel) could be balanced at a cost of 1 MP per shot, because the other branding spells cost only 2 MP and provide their brand to potentially dozens of arrows.

This gives me the idea of making all the AM brands work this way. It would be more expensive MP wise, but that also provides a better way to train spellcasting. If your only spells are buff spells which you cast once per fight, you pretty much have to victory dance to train spellcasting. It would also give AM the versatility to fire different brands at different monsters without all the interface hassle of quivering different ammo, or taking time to recast branding spells in the middle of combat. Bow use for AM should be smooth and fluid.

I like the idea of them breathing a magical word onto each arrow as they draw their bow. That action would train both their spellcasting and their bow skills, enabling them to really focus on those.

Re: Ranger's Trance - I think the inability to do anything else while in it is already a pretty significant tradeoff, I don't think it should hamper too much the escape options. A delay of 5-10 to come out of it, in a tricky spot, is the most delay I think would be appropriate. Would there be any point to a bonus to stealth while in the trance?

I really like the flavour of this being a sort of anti-berserk. Instead of unthinking rage, it is a state of utter focus and concentration, and permits only ranged attacks, while the other permits only melee.