Shooting Dudes

[snow]

The mulch rate for ammo is so ridiculously high that it's impractical to even consider trying to win using only ranged attacks... and I feel this is a bad thing. I'm sure one of the things new players do is try to play an elven hunter or whatnot, waste all their arrows before D:3, proceed to die, and never play a hunter again.

I think ranged attacks are horribly neglected in this game and have turned into nothing more than melee support.

EDIT

I posted this in the wrong section. Could a moderator move it? Thanks.

[Ashery]

Eh?

Like almost everything else in DCSS, one must manage their resources. Like a caster that spams spells with ration hunger, a hunter that burns up all of his starting ammo shouldn't expect to live long. Once you start encountering packs of centaurs and/or get enough piety with Trog/Okie to start receiving ammo gifts, you should have enough ammo to use it a bit more liberally.

[mageykun]

Move-ed.

On topic, I'd disagree slightly. You can't use launchers constantly early, but later, once you've built up reserves of ammo and some enchant scrolls, or you have Trog or Oka feeding you, you can absolutely mow down everything you come across with ranged attacks completely eschewing mele. It is probably a little counter intuitive that ranged builds have to play conservatively early on, but conservation of limited resources is just one of many things a new player has to usually learn the hard way.

Edit: pff, ninja-ed between the time it took to move the topic and post. :p

[ximxim]

Eh?

Like almost everything else in DCSS, one must manage their resources. Like a caster that spams spells with ration hunger, a hunter that burns up all of his starting ammo shouldn't expect to live long. Once you start encountering packs of centaurs and/or get enough piety with Trog/Okie to start receiving ammo gifts, you should have enough ammo to use it a bit more liberally.

That's a bit arbitrary. Why not introduce weapon durability, then? Or ADOM-style spellcasting? (Please don't). It's not like ranged combat is that powerful early game (or late game) compared to the alternatives. This is very much a early-midgame issue, later you're more likely to drown in ammo than lack it; a recent character of mine who branched into bows ended up with 1k+ +8 arrows...

[Danei]

It's not like ranged combat is that powerful early game (or late game) compared to the alternatives.

I would disagree with that, actually. Early in the game (the earlier you go, the more this is true), having a ranged weapon and ammo is a gigantic advantage to many combos (even ones that start with ranged damage capability). Picking up a sling and bullets (which can happen early on with great frequency) is helpful to most combos and extraordinarily helpful to others (looking at you, Fighter background).

And that's just the most common example. An early unenchanted crossbow with unenchanted bolts will obsolete orc wizards/priests/warriors as threats, to a meph-cloud-like extent.

Not that I disagree with the OP's premise, of course.

[njvack]

The mulch rate for ammo is so ridiculously high that it's impractical to even consider trying to win using only ranged attacks...

Only ranged attacks? Probably impractical. However, I won a SpBe using almost nothing except Slings. Once ammo gifts start rolling in, it's definitely do-able. You'll get some stacks of steel to enchant; those will carry you pretty easily through three runes. And if you find a branded sling, rocks will let you plink an awful lot of stuff.

And it'd be awfully difficult to win a character using only melee, anyhow.

[snow]

Are you kidding me? My last 3 or so wins have been with pure melee. And why must you rely on god gifts? That seems like an unneeded crutch....

Look, I've tried really hard in my earlier days with this game to make a good old fashioned elven archer. If you don't know about ammo gifts, enchanting ammo, etc. you'll never get far. There are all these arbitrary roadblocks in front of something that isn't even that good to begin with.

[dpeg]

I don't know where the idea of "a hunter should use arrows and nothing else" comes from. If you want a 'pure' style, fine but don't complain that you're playing a challenge game. Ammunition enchantment increasing longevity is explained (if not, it'd be a documentation bug). Ranged combat is useful and versatile, just don't expect to kill every with it.

Not that 'pure ranger' would be in any way realistic, it also does not make sense gameplay-wise to me. A caster is seriously hampered when MP runs out; a ranger is helpless without ammunition. One has to compromise tactically, the other a little more longterm.

[njvack]

I'm also not sure where "not even that good to begin with" comes from. The ammo-using ranged attack:

• is quiet
• can be spammed it 50 times in a row, as it uses no MP
• does quite a bit of damage
• is relatively easy to choose a brand
• has full-LOS range

...all this for one skill slot. And seeing as there are lots of arrow-using centaurs and bolt-flinging yaktaurs out there, there's a bunch of ammo out there. I kind of feel like ammo mulching is the only thing that keeps ranged attacks in check.

I could be convinced that mulch rates and damage should both be reduced for unenchanted ammo, with enchantment helping less with mulching and more with damage. I could also be convinced that things are OK as-is.

If bow hunters' games are too hard at the start, I suspect that giving them more ammo is easier than rebalancing mulch rates.

[greepish]

Really I just think players should start with more ammo, that's all. Starting with more ammo is neglible in the long run balance, it just helps newbies out while they develop their alternative beginning skills.

[Stormfox]

And if you insist on only using ranged attacks, pick up a few unmulchable daggers and a handful of darts and build some Throwing. You'll probably want to do so anyhow so you can fling stones at jellies and preserve your "real" ammo.

I'm with njvack on the SpBe -- my last win was with one of those who maxed out the Slings skill and pretty much only used a melee weapon for stabbing.