Curses

[snow]

I find curses have almost no impact on the game beyond the cursed blunt weapon you might find on D1 or D2 and even then the impact is minimal.

Even if cursed items would cause you to die in 100 turns if you didn't remove them immediately they still wouldn't have very much impact on the game for the simple fact that detect and remove curse scrolls are far too common. I personally just drop detect curse scrolls since by the middle of the game I have a stack of 15 to 20 remove curse scrolls in my stash so even if I try on a cursed item it doesn't matter at all.

Also what if cursed items randomly gave you death curses (like rot, slow, and so on).

[nicolae]

I find curses have almost no impact on the game beyond the cursed blunt weapon you might find on D1 or D2 and even then the impact is minimal.

Even if cursed items would cause you to die in 100 turns if you didn't remove them immediately they still wouldn't have very much impact on the game for the simple fact that detect and remove curse scrolls are far too common. I personally just drop detect curse scrolls since by the middle of the game I have a stack of 15 to 20 remove curse scrolls in my stash so even if I try on a cursed item it doesn't matter at all.

Also what if cursed items randomly gave you death curses (like rot, slow, and so on).

Curses seem more like an early-game frustration to me, when you won't be able to deal with them with stacks on stacks of RC scrolls, but are most likely to want to get new gear. I suppose not everything has to be a problem during the entire game. Making cursed items cause curse effects would be horrible, it'd basically mean no one would try on any new gear until they got detect/remove curse, and identifying scrolls would become way more dangerous when you read-ID curse foo. Curses could stand to be a little more interesting -- Ashenzari relying on them is pretty interesting, to me, but not everyone plays Ash -- but so far the game is designed around curses being relatively innocuous, and I think making them worse would require a good amount of changes in other areas to compensate.

Edit: Traps in hallways you can't cross if you don't have cursed items, or you can't cross if you have any cursed items?

[Zzz]

How about curses of differing severity?
Where the item has a curse duration that cannot be uncursed, only shortened by RC scrolls. Robe of Follly/Misfortune are perfect candidates for this.
What about a one-off necromancy miscast and the item is uncursed? *OR* You can simply remove it, but are cursed to take necromancy miscasts until you find RC. Or cursed with deterioration, +mut, etc.

Curses right now are pretty weak and unimportant past early dungeon. If they really need to be in game, they could stand a buff.
IMO curses fit in the same category as traps. They are a temporary effect. They either kill you or make you rest it off. That's why traps are now designed to do permanent damage, and less immediate unfun death.
So therefore curses should do something that can't just be fixed by a scroll as soon as you blunder into it. And they should definitely not kill you instantly

[pratamawirya]

My idea is that cursed items randomly give one of these effects:

Curse of Flesh: Rotting

Curse of Mind: Random MP drain and/or confusion

Curse of Bad Luck: Monster's double action almost always occurs.

Curse of Noise: Just like Shoutitis.

Curse of Cheibriados: Slow movement.

Curse of Trog: Berserkitis.

Curse of Mummy: rF-

Curse of Djinn: rC-

Curse of Vampire: Half effect of all good potions

[jejorda2]

My idea is that cursed items randomly give one of these effects:

Those sound like great ideas, except that rotting is probably strong compared to the others, assuming it's repeated rotting and not one bout that times out or is stopped with a healing potion. Maybe stat drain instead?

[varsovie]

It is true that curse is only an early game challenge, because sometime the scroll of remove curse don't appear before D10. ><

What could make the curse more threatening and fun is :
A: The suggestion of pratamawirya (flavored curse, not necessarily those flavors)
B: Reduce the chance of generate remove or detect curse scrolls (not a real solution in my mind, but we do have to many of these scrolls now)
C: Remove the detect curse scrolls since it allows to save not only remove curse scrolls but identify scrolls (Just stack a bunch of armor, detect and wear them all...) and in a way, remove a curse or avoid it is the same.
D: Make detect curse works on the whole inventory but remove curse works only on one item (like scroll of identify). Make remove curse more scarce, detect curse more valuable and differentiate both scrolls.
E: More way to get cursed. (traps, new monsters, spell miscast, the book of curse items the wand of cursing)
F: Make curse have three levels and scroll of remove curse randomly remove one or two levels.
level 0, no curse
level 1, only take three time to remove the item (can't use so effectively ring/weapon swapping)
level 2, like current curse
level 3, like current curse plus a random bad effect like pratamawirya suggest.

My personal favorite is D, because it is simple. I also suggest a way to guarantee a scroll of remove curse before D3.
<sadism> The curse mechanic could also be improved by cursing potions and scrolls, giving them a second/diminished effect the way nethack do. </sadism>

[Gilihad]

I'm on Vaults:3 and I have had 3 remove curse scrolls this game. While that is uncommon, I have also encountered enough mummies to make this problematic. I think the current system is alright, as Bog Mummies and regular Mummies will make you use your remove curse scrolls enough. When you can't swap out your amulet of clarity because you have no remove curse scrolls, and then you run into a ghost, Mara, or anyone that can confuse you, you will know how much curses suck.

[dpeg]

There is no way that curses in general (or the Curse Foo scrolls in particular) will be removed, now that Ashenzari is in. It is true that curses become a minor nuisance unless you have a peculiar game (almost no Remove Curse scrolls, for example). It may be possible to make matters more interesting along the lines suggested by Pratamawirya but perhaps there is a simpler solution. In my experience, Detect Curse is almost exclusively a convenience item. One idea has been to reduce the numbers of ?RC so as to make ?DC more relevant. But what about simply scrapping ?DC instead?

[jejorda2]

What if ?RC is replaced by some kid of holy monster that removes curses when it is killed? So you have to go back and find that stag or holy cow or whatever it was on D4 to get rid of all the curses on your gear? And it would remove all the curses in your inventory at once, detected, equipped, or not. Make it slow so it is easy to avoid killing if you like.

[evktalo]

The stag idea sounds certain kinds of awesome. I think the flavour is terrific. The image of evil characters killing holy creatures for rewards (additional to XP/piety of course) is exciting. If the rewards were high enough, it might be an interesting choice for good-god worshipers.

The thing that doesn't sound that good is "going back to D:4". This sounds like you stash the stag for later, when it doesn't provide a challenge anymore. Or worse, the stashing itself would probably be a chore (stair-lift it to a higher floor, or tediously avoid it while trying to explore the rest of D:4, or something like that).

What might work would be a one-time opportunity to either fight the stag or not - portal vaults, pan levels or abyss, et cetera.

Also the reasoning for ?DC removal sounds pretty sound to me.

--Eino

[Galefury]

I think ?DC is quite interesting, because it is proactive.

Regarding a holy uncursing monster: it could evolve or split into a different form or just be recalled to the heavens if not killed immediately.

[nicolae]

The stag idea sounds certain kinds of awesome.

Yeah, the idea of a monster that uncurses upon death is a really good one, though I wouldn't want it to replace remove curse scrolls entirely. Perhaps the general idea could be expanded? Monsters that give a little HP when you kill them, or MP, or whatever.

What might work would be a one-time opportunity to either fight the stag or not - portal vaults, pan levels or abyss, et cetera.

Have holy uncursing stags disappear when you leave the level, and they can't follow on staircases.

[Caethan]

There is no way that curses in general (or the Curse Foo scrolls in particular) will be removed, now that Ashenzari is in. It is true that curses become a minor nuisance unless you have a peculiar game (almost no Remove Curse scrolls, for example). It may be possible to make matters more interesting along the lines suggested by Pratamawirya but perhaps there is a simpler solution. In my experience, Detect Curse is almost exclusively a convenience item. One idea has been to reduce the numbers of ?RC so as to make ?DC more relevant. But what about simply scrapping ?DC instead?

Alternatively, change ?DC so that it's a targeted effect like identify. That would prevent the grindy behavior of picking up all the glowing robes but allow checking if for example, an awesome artefact weapon might be dangerous.

[nicolae]

Alternatively, change ?DC so that it's a targeted effect like identify. That would prevent the grindy behavior of picking up all the glowing robes but allow checking if for example, an awesome artefact weapon might be dangerous.

I like this.

[ohmi]

Alternatively, change ?DC so that it's a targeted effect like identify. That would prevent the grindy behavior of picking up all the glowing robes but allow checking if for example, an awesome artefact weapon might be dangerous.

Why not make Identify scrolls a little more common to compensate for no more Detect Curse scrolls? Perhaps 25% more likely, not so much that one would always have a nice stack of them, but enough to make to make it harder to decide whether to use one on a robe or weapon that might be cursed or save it for the next wand, esp. if no Remove Curses are available. A similar result might be obtained by making it more likely to get 2 or 3 ids from a single scroll.

We could add a single-use remove curse effect to offset the curse effects (put on a blessed <item>, it removes all active curses once; Ash suppresses that effect).

Add uncursing to sparkling fountains, make mutations a bit rarer?

Perhaps curse effects should only be found on visibly enchanted items. For otherwise normal items (food, ammo, etc), a set of effects like the current traps and trunk traps, toned down some but level-based, could be provided using a new kind of pressure plate that triggers once after an item is picked up). That could make picking up the first shield you find a little more interesting. T&D would reduce the risk/effects of such traps w/out requiring tedious detect/disarm attempts, making the skill useful from D:1.

[XuaXua]

I'd like to see a basic curse do more than just force you to use the item and maybe give you a non positive to-hit/to-damage.
Maybe a -AC, -EV, +hunger or -%MP or -%HP penalty as well. Have the - to-hit / damage associated with the curse applique, not with the weapon. A curse of (-4/-4) could turn a +2/+3 sword into a -2/-1 sword, etc.

[sardonica]

All of this discussion is rather silly to me.

"Curses are too easy to get rid of, so they're irrelevant"

"You're right! Here's fifty different kinds of curses we can try!"

It doesn't even solve the 'problem.'

[VargrVeum]

My idea is that cursed items randomly give one of these effects:

Curse of Flesh: Rotting

Curse of Mind: Random MP drain and/or confusion

Curse of Bad Luck: Monster's double action almost always occurs.

Curse of Noise: Just like Shoutitis.

Curse of Cheibriados: Slow movement.

Curse of Trog: Berserkitis.

Curse of Mummy: rF-

Curse of Djinn: rC-

Curse of Vampire: Half effect of all good potions

Hell yes! cursed items with bad stats you can't get rid of are all well and good - but the occasional deliciously flavoured curse would be very welcome in my book. Might I suggest:

Curse of the Thin Man: Increased hunger rate

Curse of Twisting: Random mutations (negative heavy)

Curse of The Hungry God: Every corpse is instantly sacrificed

Curse of Light: Adds glow and transparent walls around player

Curse of Darkness: lowers visibility range

Curse of the Stitched Mouth: Silence effect

Curse of the Pacifist: Injury mirror

Sorry - I like this idea and could pull endless barely thought through ideas out of my arse all day. Best get back to work, the boss is watching me.

[Deimos]

Curse of the Cursed Cursor: Any Remove Curse scroll is converted to Curse Foo upon hovering the cursor over it.

[VargrVeum]

Curse of Ashenzari - All items are immediately uncursed and all Curse Scrolls transformed into Remove Curse scrolls

[varsovie]

Curse of the Cursed Cursor: Any Remove Curse scroll is converted to Curse Foo upon hovering the cursor over it.

Don't be silly, who use a mouse nowadays?

@sardonica

Some solutions have poped out :
Make remove (or detect) curse scrolls work on one item at time (maybe with a chance of multiple like identify scroll).
Tweak the amount of remove (or detect) curse scrolls, or even remove the latter.
Make the curses have different "level" of curse, though using more than one scroll to remove or having moar efect.
Find more way to get (un)cursed.

Still no solution has been made to make scroll of curse foo relevant past (very) early game (except for Ash).

[BlackSheep]

Detect Curse scrolls were removed in 0.11.

[Lasty]

For those of you who want curses to play a bigger role in the game, what would that role be? Should they be:

a) foreseeable penalty that you get for bad play,
b) a consequence of fighting powerful monsters,
c) an arbitrary imposition from a cruel universe,
d) a barrier to fully exploring/identifying your surroundings,
e) something else?

When you have a curse, should it be:

a) a nuisance,
b) crippling and possibly fatal,
c) not crippling, but forcing a change of playstyle and/or tactics?

And lastly, how long should curses persist?

a) a long time
b) a short time
c) until you die, unless you get lucky
d) an arbitrary length of time.

For those of you who want longer lasting and/or more vicious curses, what sets them apart from mutations / potions of cure mutations? Currently curses are tied to equipment, are completely undetectable except by falling victim to them or burning scrolls of ID, are trivial unless they make you starve to death or prevent a key equipment switch, and are short-lasting in that there are plentiful remove curse scrolls. If curses are more powerful but no easier to detect, they'll either be a death sentence or equally trivial to now (because you're holding a ?oRC). If they're easier to detect, they'll be like a flag that says, "don't use this item", which seems undesirable.

If curses should matter more but not be arbitrary death or easily avoidable, I think we have to change fundamentally how curses are gained and removed. For example, remove scrolls of remove curse entirely, and then make it so each item curse has a condition that allows you to break it. Have a few curse types, most of which are painful but not crippling, and put them mostly on items good enough to be worth working for.