Mines Malingerer
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Re: "Give Mountain Dwarves the axe"
- For this message the author rabidweasel has received thanks:
- Arrhythmia
Although the central place for design discussion is ##crawl-dev on freenode, some may find it helpful to discuss requests and suggestions here first.
Mines Malingerer
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Snake Sneak
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Tartarus Sorceror
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tazoz wrote:They could start with picks instead of hand axes, 5 damage 120 speed axes that have the additional ability to break one tile walls in three turns when evoked and that deal extra damage versus golems and other stone creatures. (could be a nice class of weapon)
Halls Hopper
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Abyss Ambulator
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goo wrote:I think getting rid of MD is a rash decision. HO is a strictly worse MD that only has Beogh to differentiate them from other races and give them flavor. Minotaurs, even with these new changes, still aren't as good at being super tanks like MD (they can't equip helmets for one thing, and their Armour apt currently isn't as high as MD, although the latter can be changed obviously). MD may be boring, but they definitely fill a niche and an archetype not represented by any other race.
People on the SA forums have been posting some suggestions I like. They think MD should be kept in as the generic melee/tank benchmark race (the same way DE are for casters), and Minotaurs and HO should be balanced and differentiated around them. One poster said to make Minotaurs a large race, and give them either *Rage or +Rage (since they are bulls afterall), and balance them around that.
As for Hill Orcs, maybe lower the good fire aptitudes from MD and give them to HO (I think this has already been done in trunk.) Maybe boost their spellcasting aptitudes a bit too, so they can do the armoured caster thing. Orcs already have wizard and sorceror mobs so it makes sense. As it stands currently, all Hill Orcs have going for them is Beogh. While playing an Orc Jesus can be fun, overall they aren't that great of a race IMO.
Tartarus Sorceror
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goo wrote:Minotaurs, even with these new changes, still aren't as good at being super tanks like MD (they can't equip helmets for one thing).
Halls Hopper
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Blade wrote:b
Sure, many of the areas Mountain Dwarves are superior at are more relevant to their typical style of play, but they are by no means strictly better than Hill Orcs. Beogh is also not a small thing; HOPr is an entirely unique play style that is great fun. Nothing comes even close to the "gather an army of worshippers" play except for perhaps Death Knights, and that only shares the similarities of permanent followers. You can't handwave that away; it's one of the best things orcs have going for them.
Tartarus Sorceror
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As for Minotaurs, maybe tweak them some more instead of just getting rid of Mountain Dwarves? Maybe skew MD towards more defensive tanky aptitudes, while Minotaur towards more offensive ones? Give Minotaur another auxiliary attack like hooves, to further boost their melee damage while lowering their defensive qualities?
Abyss Ambulator
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goo wrote:Can you honestly say you would play a Hill Orc over any other race if you didn't want to go with Beogh? Beogh is fun, but there is no other reason to play a Hill Orc. Most of those aptitudes you listed don't even go together that well. For one thing, HO has +2 Stabbing, but they also have -2 Stealth so what's the point? Most of Hill Orc skills either don't synergize well, or can be done better by another race.
Not to flame, and I want to state that I respect the devs and appreciate that they volunteer to work on this game, but I am disappointed in most of the changes that have been put in 0.10 so far. Aside from the refinement of the new XP system (which is great), most of the changes seem superfluous at best. The Draconian armour change for one thing, which makes no sense either flavor or game play wise, and now the removal of a classic, archetypal, fun, and balanced race because it's too similar to two other races? HO with Beogh are already different enough in my opinion. As for Minotaurs, maybe tweak them some more instead of just getting rid of Mountain Dwarves? Maybe skew MD towards more defensive tanky aptitudes, while Minotaur towards more offensive ones? Give Minotaur another auxiliary attack like hooves, to further boost their melee damage while lowering their defensive qualities? This would further separate them from Dwarves.
This decision is too rash, and I'm not happy with it. I know I am definitely not the only one.
Swamp Slogger
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nicolae wrote:tazoz wrote:They could start with picks instead of hand axes, 5 damage 120 speed axes that have the additional ability to break one tile walls in three turns when evoked and that deal extra damage versus golems and other stone creatures. (could be a nice class of weapon)
Practically-free digging from pickaxes would just lead to Mega Tedious Excavation Projects - just look at how that goes in Nethack.
Maybe the Mine Dwarf would have bonuses to Earth Magic as they level up, the way Mummies get with Necromancy.
Incidentally, whatever happened to that suggestion I saw on the wiki for making dwarves small? Did it turn out that that wouldn't have been interesting?
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goo wrote:Can you honestly say you would play a Hill Orc over any other race if you didn't want to go with Beogh?
Halls Hopper
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Blade wrote:It's not that Hill Orcs of not-Beogh aren't viable, just that other things are more interesting in other areas. In the same vein, I play Demigods, Draconians, and Demonspawn instead of humans.
The Draconian change makes perfect sense; they are the only race with wings, and it is very reasonable to say that body armour can't fit over wings. They excel now as hybrids/casters with decent AC and EV; flight is also handy.
As for making MD tanks and Minotaurs glass cannons...+3 armour apt is about as heavy of a tank as you're going to find; shields, the other heavy defense skill, don't work well with axes, the traditional dwarf weapon. Hill Orcs of not-Beogh do everything MD did, with near-insignificant differences and better hybridizing due to the casting buffs. I'd be fine with seeing Mountain Dwarves back with an overhaul, but without it the only argument I can think of for keeping them is that they're traditional, and a game with octupi as a playable race should not be hugely concerned with sticking to stereotypes.
Blades Runner
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goo wrote:Draconians aren't the only race with wings, we have Kenku, who somehow can still wear robes as far as I know.
goo wrote:For one thing, HO has +2 Stabbing, but they also have -2 Stealth so what's the point?
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goo wrote:EDIT: Actually, on second thought, don't give Mountain Dwarves any positive magical aptitudes at all and give them to Hill Orcs. Then we have a melee tank, melee damage dealer, and an armoured caster. Three different races that specialize in heavy armor, with three different roles.
Ziggurat Zagger
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goo wrote:Minotaur
Innate Horns 2 or 3
Innate Hooves 3
goo wrote:Innate Berserkitis 1 (This is optional and up for debate)
goo wrote:+1 HP
+1 Armour
+1 Shields
+2 Dodging
+2 Fighting, UC, and all Melee Weapons
+1 All Ranged Weapons except crossbow
Magic aptitudes stay as is.
+0 or lower for everything else
Halls Hopper
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duvessa wrote:Christ, you can't remove anything without tavern complaining about it.
Tartarus Sorceror
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Roderic wrote:Hmm, how would golems fit well among the large melee builds without overlapping / redundance ?
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I could actually see Sludge elves added to Minotaurs - Hooves, Horns and solid transumtational and unarmed apts. Minos being good at "hybridization" makes sense in a way.
It is slightly odd that minotaurs are becoming the default heavy armor tank species when they have an armor restriction and no "race with racial equipment" bonus.
duvessa wrote:Christ, you can't remove anything without tavern complaining about it.
Crypt Cleanser
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duvessa wrote:Christ, you can't remove anything without tavern complaining about it.
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Tartarus Sorceror
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TwilightPhoenix wrote:Some of the comments to that post were... strong. So, on a positive note, I do like the way the new HO apts look.
Crypt Cleanser
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duvessa wrote:Christ, you can't remove anything without tavern complaining about it.
Tartarus Sorceror
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Roderic wrote:Sure, l can't wait to see humans replaced by the intestinal worm
Swamp Slogger
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Tartarus Sorceror
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thenewflesh wrote:The motto for 0.10: Gimmicks FTW.
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Swamp Slogger
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Just out of curiosity, what niches are there that are still open that wouldn't require gimmicks to differentiate them? I imagine it'd have to be a spell-school differentiation. High-HP Summoners, or a really good dedicated FE, maybe.
Tartarus Sorceror
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thenewflesh wrote:Race that's excellent at armour and doesn't have any slot restrictions, maybe?
Swamp Slogger
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nicolae wrote:thenewflesh wrote:Race that's excellent at armour and doesn't have any slot restrictions, maybe?
Okay... is having to wear a hat instead of a helmet actually that detrimental to the playstyle? Isn't it just a difference of 1 AC?
Tartarus Sorceror
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thenewflesh wrote:Not really, it's just a stupid gimmick that I don't like, that's all.
Plus, you miss on artefacts. In my 2 years of playing, I've only found like 2-3 artefact hats and more artefact helmets that I can count. So while it's not a big deal, it is pretty annoying.
But, to be honest, the main reason is that I hate the way Minotaur wearing hat looks in tiles. He looks like a douche.
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nicolae wrote:thenewflesh wrote:Race that's excellent at armour and doesn't have any slot restrictions, maybe?
Okay... is having to wear a wizard hat instead of a helmet actually that detrimental to the playstyle? Isn't it just a difference of 1 AC?
multiple wrote:Stuff about hat-weirding Minotaurs looking dumb in Tiles wearing hats.
Ziggurat Zagger
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dpeg wrote:Someone asked why there was no public discussion: Why? The forum is not our parliament
Ziggurat Zagger
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Roderic wrote:Sure, l can't wait to see humans replaced by the intestinal worm
Tartarus Sorceror
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TwilightPhoenix wrote:You know, you can manually change your head tile to whatever you want despite what you're actually wearing, right?
XuaXua wrote:Roderic wrote:Sure, l can't wait to see humans replaced by the intestinal worm
Innate transmutation ability: link three or more humans together to create a centipede.
Halls Hopper
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Snake Sneak
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TwilightPhoenix wrote:Actually, zero. Helmets are just as tough as caps.
TwilightPhoenix wrote:multiple wrote:Stuff about hat-weirding Minotaurs looking dumb in Tiles wearing hats.
You know, you can manually change your head tile to whatever you want despite what you're actually wearing, right?
Halls Hopper
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Megabass wrote:
Also, @goo, it would seem it's not so much Minotaur vs Dwarf as a matter of 'who's getting cut', but between Hill Orcs and Dwarves, with Hill Orcs ultimately winning out due to Beogh, and Minotaurs being there to reinforce their decision. (Which if you ask me, sounds like an excuse, but hey, noone friggin' asked me.)
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