The Tavern

Was checking up in the trunk change list and came across this

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0edc768 | Adam Borowski | 2011-10-25 19:39:38 +0200

Give mountain dwarves the axe.
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So y'all are cutting Mountain Dwarves then? I'm not entirely sure of the desired end result here.

Mountain Dwarves, Hill Orcs and Minotaurs aren't really different enough to justify the existence of all three.

If you say so.

Guess there needs to be a good excuse to roll Golems out sometime soon anyway.

Deep dwarves are just dwarves then? I guess flavor-wise it's nice having a Crawl-specific take on the dwarf, rather than a direct copy of every dwarf ever used anywhere since LotR.

Mmm. Still. Going to miss my little armored brick shithouses.

Grimm is gonna be pissed.

I'm mostly going to miss them for flavor purposes. Who doesn't want to be a dwarf?

It feels weird to have a popular feature completely removed without at least some attempt at fixing the problem. Did nobody have any good ideas for differentiating MDs?

The dwarves are used to a life full of anxiety: the Hill Dwarves went ages ago, now it was the Mountain Dwarves' turn. Then again, Deep Dwarves came for a visit.

Of the three similar species (rightly identified upthread as HO, MD, Mi), Orcs were sacrosanct due to being protected by Beogh and Minotaurs for labyrinths. (I know that some will say that dwarves are cooler than minotaurs but in my book Crete has a much better reputation than ) Note that Mountain Dwarves were not monsters.
Now, the truth is that Minotaur aptitudes got changed, they look a lot more like old Mountain Dwarves than old Minotaurs. Compare yourself!

If someone sees a way to add a similar species with a clear aptitude niche and/or some good additional rule change, there is no problem is bringing MD (or something similar) back.

I actually... support this. It's weird not having mdfi in crawl but this change makes total sense.

Not that I have any problem with the removal, but was there any talk of changing minotaurs instead? Most of the semi-monstrous species currently in the game have features that are a significant impact on play, but minotaurs have horns. And that's it. They don't even lose the armor slot.

I believe Minotaur can wear caps and wizard hats, but not most helmets? Is that still correct? Or am I just imagining things?

The way I see it, the only thing lost by the mountain dwarf removal is that there is no longer a race that specializes in fire magic. Granted, very few people took advantage of the fire magic apt, but at the moment the only races good with fire are low HP ones (unless you count red draconians). And in fact, red dracs are the only race with a +2 apt in fire.

This is really the only niche lost by the MD removal. Everything else is covered by Mi or HO, which tend to do a better job anyway. I've always thought that all the people playing MDFi and MDBe were a bit misguided... MiGl and MiBe are usually better.

Hill Orcs have been changed to +1 in Fire/ -1 in Ice/ -2 in Spellcasting, and they start with higher INT. I think they are very interesting now.

XuaXua wrote:Grimm is gonna be pissed.

If by 'pissed' you mean 'drunk', then indubitably.

I can't say I'll miss them, but their absence does create a bit of imbalance with three subspecies of elves and only one of everything else. It might make sense to remove/reflavour one of them.

High elves already are very similar to merfolk without the added flavour of water travel, and they're the least interesting of the three subspecies; taking them out might not be a bad idea.

Grimm wrote:
XuaXua wrote:Grimm is gonna be pissed.

If by 'pissed' you mean 'drunk', then indubitably.

See? Now look what you've done!

Driving poor Grimm into his cups. For shame, devs. For shame.

Wouldn't it have made more sense to get rid of humans (no one plays them) or halflings (aka like kobolds but worse in every way) instead?

Blade wrote:I can't say I'll miss them, but their absence does create a bit of imbalance with three subspecies of elves and only one of everything else. It might make sense to remove/reflavour one of them.

High elves already are very similar to merfolk without the added flavour of water travel, and they're the least interesting of the three subspecies; taking them out might not be a bad idea.

It's a bit weird how there are three elves, but I think they all have fairly established niches, without too much overlap. They could stand to be a bit more different, but not too much. Deep elves are the most "pure caster" of all races, and sludge elves make good transmuters and are one of the few unarmed races.

As for high elves, they work well for hybrids that want to take a heavy magic focus (merfolk can do this too, but they lean more towards melee... kenku can also be a magic-heavy hybrid, but they have terrible HP and are more "reaver" focused). I don't think there are any races that do this quite as well as high elves do.

Halflings seem like they'd be more likely to get removed, although I kind of like them (I think they're more fun than kobolds, anyway).

both high elves and halflings are well differentiated. this isn't MD/HO/Mi territory. the former two were, beogh aside, esentially equivalent (and orcs leveled up much faster).
it does feel weird, but it's a good idea. maybe deep dwarves should drop the "deep" now. as said above, it's nice to have a take on it that's all crawl's own.

ximxim wrote:Wouldn't it have made more sense to get rid of humans (no one plays them) or halflings (aka like kobolds but worse in every way) instead?

1) If you can manage food issues Ha are the stronger species, sorry. Their EV is going to be higher, their SH is going to be higher, they are (even) better at Long Blades, their Slings skill is better. If you intend to spam Berserk every fight, then play Ko, if you want an extremely strong EV-based fighter Ha is the way to go, not Ko.
This doesn't mean I would cry to see them go, but definitely not for "like Ko but worse" reasons.
2) I play humans. I know quite a few who do play humans (jle and Skan for instance). And anyway, humans are the "base" species. I also think they are, in fact, different enough from other species to justify them being in. Their playstyle is much more variable than say, HE, which will classically end up as a Conjurations/Charms/Long Blades build, or Ha, ditto with Long/Short blades, Slings, and great defences, possibly with some Charms thrown in.

I think there could be one problem with dropping "deep": when players see "Dwarf" they think "oooh, heavy armour tank with a BIG AXE" and might not think of DD's issues or strength at Necromancy. Plus, I don't think that "Deep Dwarf" is a bad name flavour-wise or aesthetically.
Mf and HE are similar (like HO and Mi are similar) but with certain differences: HE are better at Conjurations, HE are often used with Bows (physical ranged isn't often done with Mf, and if it is usually Throwing), Mf has the whole water thing, HE are great Fire Elementalists and Air Elementalists in addition to Ice.#

Definitely thumbs up to the changes. Next, kick out Felids please.

Also LAVA ORCS!

cerebovssquire wrote:I think there could be one problem with dropping "deep": when players see "Dwarf" they think "oooh, heavy armour tank with a BIG AXE" and might not think of DD's issues or strength at Necromancy. Plus, I don't think that "Deep Dwarf" is a bad name flavour-wise or aesthetically.

true. then again: ogres. (not that the existence of a problem is reason enough to make it worse.)
regarding the name, i'd drop qualifiers when possible, but i guess it's worth it to keep it as is if only to avoid confusions with old MD.

Right, especially since our dwarves are all the same, the overwhelming expectation will be that a race called Dwarf, given without qualification, will be something like the standard Tolkien dwarf—that is, our former Mountain Dwarf. An adjective is needed to deflect that expectation.

Also, no need to change a perfectly good name.

I loved MDEE, MDFE and several other hybrids

Well, Looks like it's time to switch to hill orcs

cerebovssquire wrote:2) I play humans. I know quite a few who do play humans (jle and Skan for instance). And anyway, humans are the "base" species. I also think they are, in fact, different enough from other species to justify them being in. Their playstyle is much more variable than say, HE, which will classically end up as a Conjurations/Charms/Long Blades build, or Ha, ditto with Long/Short blades, Slings, and great defences, possibly with some Charms thrown in.

Problem is that humans aren't the best generalists as they should be. IMO Demonspawns, hill orcs, nagas and demigods are as good in that role. -1\-2 in apttitude doesn't change much

Flavour-wise, DD are very much unique on their own than the Tolkienish MD. Thinking about it, the only true reason for MD is the MDFi noob-friendly build.

Deep Dwarves are competent in many backgrounds including pure melee, using MP to infuse their heal wounds wands. They remain as stocky, hardy, rockish fighters but stealthier than their surface brethren.

We have lost a race with the best aptitude to armour but very poor stealth but we retain a dwarves which are somewhat good with armour and stealthier.

Folkore-wise, dwarves are more similar to DD than to the MD based on LOTR and D&D, which are more like stout humans than demihuman beings.

HE and Ha are also strongly based on LOTR and candidates to be suppressed in another future genocide, but there is also some lore basis to keep them.

About elves, HE are similar to feeric beings and of the liosalfar of Norse myths, DE are underground species, which is good, and SE are basically wild, more solitary elves; they fit well three main niches: magic warrior/ranger, caster, rogues. Some renaming action could help to avoid too much elven stuff in comparison to other races.

Personally I wouldn't miss HE at all (if I want to play a good hybrid I'll play one of the many other races that do it well and do it way more interestingly - Mf, Na, Ke, Dr, Dg, Ds, Op...) and would love to purge them to even up the elf numbers a bit, not sure if that one's as likely to happen though.

Problem is that humans aren't the best generalists as they should be. IMO Demonspawns, hill orcs, nagas and demigods are as good in that role. -1\-2 in apttitude doesn't change much

Well, two things: first of all, all of these are special in some regard unlike humans. I think it's good that we have some bog-standard race.
Second, even as generalists, Humans are, well, the most generalist (if maybe not the strongest) for the following reasons:
Demonspawn can't worship good gods which makes humans more general. They also have restricted armour slots in most cases, or have to adapt to Demonic Guardian (no Okawaru...)
Hill Orcs are most similar to Humans in this regard but humans are still worse at melee and better at magic.
Naga are good generalists but require certain skills like adapting to slow speed (I, myself, am a horrible Naga player and haven't won one despite having less problems with stuff like Og or Op).
Demigods are basically humans with no gods. Thing is, the key to winning <insert combo here> is "go Kiku"/"go Trog" which makes them even more dependent on floor drops. It's harder to steer a Demigod the way you want it skill-wise than it is with a Human.

Would have rather seen minotaurs go. Hard to see how labyrinths (revamp after revamp, they remain a boring vault type) are a point in the minotaur's favor.

theropod wrote:Would have rather seen minotaurs go. Hard to see how labyrinths (revamp after revamp, they remain a boring vault type) are a point in the minotaur's favor.

The weapon aptitudes of Hill Orcs and Mountain Dwarves were more similar than those of Hill Orcs and Minotaurs. For instance, both were "bad at staves, decent at blades, great at axes and maces" where the only big difference was that HO belonged to the best polearms users. Mi has +2 to every weapon aptitude. Plus, Mi is good as an EV-based build (well, if you manage to get decent Dex) as well as an AC-based one. So they're more versatile physical fighters.
Mi also has nothing they're really good at magically. HO and MD both made good EEs, FEs and IEs in the case of HO. Mi doesn't (well, Mi<caster of your choice> is great because um, go Trog/Elyvilon/Okawaru, wear plate

).
Minotaurs have a restricted armour slot unlike MD... for what it's worth...
This in addition to their labyrinth affinity.

Gosh, this thread makes me want to play some brawny, brawly, violent Minotaurs and Hill Orcs. Maybe even some Orcs casting Earth spells in plate mail.

anyway, where and when were this executive decision taken ?

I've no seen any thread here complaining about similarities between MD and HO and a possible removal, so it' is like having this decision "fallen from skies".

EDIT: Nonetheless I think it has been taken on benefit and improving of the game by our beloved devs ( a +5 +5 bless upon them)

In this case most of the discussion happened on IRC. There are lots of different places where dev talk happens (tavern, wiki, IRC, mailing list) so I guess if you only follow some subset of them then occasionally you'll be taken by surprise.

Roderic wrote:anyway, where and when were this executive decision taken ?

I've no seen any thread here complaining about similarities between MD and HO and a possible removal, so it' is like having this decision "fallen from skies".

EDIT: Nonetheless I think it has been taken on benefit and improving of the game by our beloved devs ( a +5 +5 bless upon them)

The devs don't really do their things here, I believe they use a chatroom.

Yeah, I was not only considering this humble forum but also the wiki

Now we only have one Dwarven race and three elven to take advantage of dwarven-branded equipment?

Recast Sludge Elf as Mud Dwarf.

Does this mean the long-rumoured dwarf branch is no longer happening?

cerebovssquire wrote:
ximxim wrote:Wouldn't it have made more sense to get rid of humans (no one plays them) or halflings (aka like kobolds but worse in every way) instead?

1) If you can manage food issues Ha are the stronger species, sorry. Their EV is going to be higher, their SH is going to be higher, they are (even) better at Long Blades, their Slings skill is better. If you intend to spam Berserk every fight, then play Ko, if you want an extremely strong EV-based fighter Ha is the way to go, not Ko.
This doesn't mean I would cry to see them go, but definitely not for "like Ko but worse" reasons.

I guess it comes down to different playstyles, but the main draw for me for kobolds over halflings is that they're much more versatile at magic skills. I'll concede that if you want to take shields up to 21 (for no penalties with a normal shield) halflings will be desirable.

Grimm wrote:Does this mean the long-rumoured dwarf branch is no longer happening?

why not ? Dwarves are now truly well defined and they deserve a forge as much as those albino elves a hall.

Or at least, we can work on medium-large vaults for them.

XuaXua wrote:Now we only have one Dwarven race and three elven to take advantage of dwarven-branded equipment?

Recast Sludge Elf as Mud Dwarf.

Dwarven equipment is advantageous to all for it is corrosion-resistant.

"Sludge" is meaningless as hell but the race is really good for the roles they have with trm, necro, UC. I'd rather see them as a forest, wild elfic/feeric race (as Latin silvani or Swedish skogsra) which would not benefit from the civilized gear of elven craftsmanship.

ximxim wrote:...

Really? REALLY?

From a gameplay standpoint, I don't think I'll miss them. I've noticed that whenever I go for heavily armored fighters, I'm using going after HO now, not MD. From a non-gameplay standpoint, it does feel like a hole is being created by removing the generic dwarf type.

For Elves, DE easily fits the typical Elf theme (a bit weak but good with magic) so could easily be renamed to HE and kick current HE out. Reflavoring SE to Forest Elf or something like that would also be nice as Sludge Elves just sound weird.

TwilightPhoenix wrote:From a gameplay standpoint, I don't think I'll miss them. I've noticed that whenever I go for heavily armored fighters, I'm using going after HO now, not MD. From a non-gameplay standpoint, it does feel like a hole is being created by removing the generic dwarf type.

Make them "hi ho, hi ho" style gold mining dwarves who are good at digging and swinging pickaxes and finding gold.

That's actually not a bad idea - a race with an inbuilt digging ability, and perhaps mine-able gold, that would make them synergistic with the gold god.

I don't think a digging ability is a good idea, the dungeon shouldn't be too modifiable (the dig spell is problematic enough).
However a dwarf race with passive "sense gold" would be cool.

Edit: Ah ha! First.

If they have digging, they should not have it at the start or it should take several turns to perform.

I would say, to parallel Deep Dwarves, give them Detect Gold.

As in, within a range that extends by experience, they can automatically detect gold.

EDIT: SONOFA...

Maybe they could have, instead, an inherent passwall ability a la the spell, that they grow into at Level 5 or 6? And good Fire Magic apts? Lava Dwarf, perhaps...?

Edit: Further thoughts: perhaps a single pip of rF at level 10-12 or somewhere in there, like the Deep Dwarf's rN, or maybe instead of that a Lava Swim ability at level 15, on par with Kenku flight?

roctavian wrote:Maybe they could have, instead, an inherent passwall ability a la the spell, that they grow into at Level 5 or 6? And good Fire Magic apts? Lava Dwarf, perhaps...?

Edit: Further thoughts: perhaps a single pip of rF at level 10-12 or somewhere in there, like the Deep Dwarf's rN, or maybe instead of that a Lava Swim ability at level 15, on par with Kenku flight?

You might want to look into Lava Orcs.

Unless that's what you were poking at.

The Tavern

"Give Mountain Dwarves the axe"

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