Merfolk berserker - I want my spear at start !!

[omegasean]

please all powerful dungeon masters, remove the useless axe from my merfolk berserker and give me a spear. I understand that starting with a trident might be OP, but a handaxe and zero spear skill is so inconvenient.

Thank you !

[cerebovssquire]

It's not as inconvenient as you think - crosstraining with polearms will give you a +8 Polearms aptitude till the skill is higher than Axes, and it's not like MfBe has a hard time surviving till you find a spear/trident.

[omegasean]

Species based starting weapons are not optimal - if a kobold where to start with a mace wouldn't they ditch it in favor of a short sword ? why not just start them with a weapon of the players choice and let them choose a short sword at start, and let me choose my spear

[nicolae]

why not just start them with a weapon of the players choice and let them choose a short sword at start, and let me choose my spear

Picking a weapon also gives you some levels in that weapon skill to start with, though. Getting to choose your weapon is a buff (though not a huge one), and the Berserker class hardly needs more of those.

[thenewflesh]

Plus, "classic" stealthy, stabby KoBe isn't the only way to play this combo and kobolds aren't that bad at m&f. The problem is that merfolks aren't too good with anything but polearms, so giving them a spear at the start would only make sense as you will eventually switch to one anyway.

[ElectricAlbatross]

why not just start them with a weapon of the players choice and let them choose a short sword at start, and let me choose my spear

Picking a weapon also gives you some levels in that weapon skill to start with, though. Getting to choose your weapon is a buff (though not a huge one), and the Berserker class hardly needs more of those.

I used to worry whether removing bad features from the game would affect balance, but then Ashenai wrote this comment about "thinking about features in reverse", and I fret no longer. Imagine that in trunk berserkers can and always could choose their starting weapons, and imagine also that we thought Berserkers were still overpowered and needed a nerf. Suppose somebody proposed, "Let's take away Berserkers' choice of starting weapon; make them all start with axes, except ogres should get ankus because they're better with Maces and Flails and kobolds should get maces because um..." Would you consider this a good change for the game?

If your answer to the previous question is "yes," then your opposition to omegasean's proposal is legitimate. You believe that it's good that all berserkers start with axes, except the ones that don't; let's hear why. Otherwise, why not take out what is a bad feature, and evaluate later whether it makes Berserkers too overpowered?

[jpeg]

Suppose somebody proposed, "Let's take away Berserkers' choice of starting weapon; make them all start with axes, except ogres should get ankus because they're better with Maces and Flails and kobolds should get maces because um..." Would you consider this a good change for the game?

In general, the devteam is trying to reduce the number of secondary choice screens, so yes, if Berserkers had "always" had a choice of weapon, that would have been removed several versions ago (maybe it was, I don't remember), especially as they certainly don't need a "buff" to the early game.

Like with other backgrounds, using the weapon for which the species has the best aptitude might make sense. Then again, why should all Merfolk be shoehorned into the polearm direction? (Though I admit I always pick spears as Merfolk starting weapon myself.)

[TehDruid]

Frankly the weapon of choice for berserkers scene doesn't make sense, as it is.

Trolls and Ogres get a favored choice, for no apparent reason (I suspect it's because of their overall glass cannon situation).
Kobolds get M&F. This one I really don't get. I mean, short blades aren't a weapon fit for a berserker thematically, but why not begin with axes then?

I mean, I can see how adding a choice of weapon for berserkers could topple the balance towards the berserker's favor, but heck, all 3 knight zealots can choose one and they still have their gods' abilities to play with. Who's to say that Trog is more OP than Yredelemnul or Lucy? Banishment can save your ass in a situation where you can't kill an enemy with berserk/trog's hand, for example. Or avoid an early jelly, because you don't want to engage it in melee. Why do berserkers enjoy this privilege of being entitled "too OP in the early game"? Plus, the knight zealots enjoy pluses to their gear (even chaos knights)! Also, in 0.10 priests begin with a quarterstaff, which is one of the best starting weapons, if not the best.

The following is just a suggestion (not terribly well-thought through)... Imho, If you want to remain concise, by forcing berserkers into "picking" axes because it's "Trog's weapon of choice" or because "berserkers absolutely LOVE axes regardless of their race's culture" (which is reflected by their aptitudes, naturally), you should also force all the different knight zealot backgrounds to begin with a specific weapon type that fits their god's profile.

Abyssal Knight: Not sure what would fit flavour-wise.
Chaos Knight: Random weapon every time.
Death Knight: Falchion/lonsword. (we have Zonguldrok and the Death Knight's sword fixedarts, for example, that fit this, If you wish to associate Yredelemnul with longswords. I realize TSO is connected to long blades, but wouldn't it actually be cool to have a dark knight vs the long-gone paladin background both using swords?)

Another idea (it's probably farfetched) is to make all the knight backgrounds start with long blades, since they're "knights", a fantasy archetype which uses longswords & shields/2-h greatswords. If they used polearms they would be called pikemen.

A potentially simpler solution for berserkers is to allow them to pick a weapon, but have it be "crude" or "worn", meaning of course the weapon getting -1 or -2 to both its Acc and Dmg modifiers. Think of them as savages, cavemen, If you will.

[ElectricAlbatross]

In general, the devteam is trying to reduce the number of secondary choice screens, so yes, if Berserkers had "always" had a choice of weapon, that would have been removed several versions ago (maybe it was, I don't remember), especially as they certainly don't need a "buff" to the early game.

Just like weapon choice was removed for Fi, Gl, AK, CK, DK, Sk, and Wr, and not added for Hu and AM several versions ago?

[Kate]

Right now the weapon selection criteria for berserkers is purely "maces if you have a better mace apt than axe apt, axes otherwise". Maybe it'd be worth tweaking this somehow to allow for short swords and spears too, not sure.

[cerebovssquire]

Who's to say that Trog is more OP than Yredelemnul or Lucy?

The fact that he gives you an ability that trivialises the pre-lair game while unlike Banishment gives you experience and doesn't cost piety and doesn't cost tons of piety like Injury Mirror; the fact that he has the most powerful god summon in the game which is quite capable of killing end-game (speaking of Zot enemies) in twos or threes, reliably; the fact that you are basically guaranteed a weapon that will clear the whole endgame and midgame with ease.
If you say that Lugonu is better suited for some situations, that's correct. This doesn't make her just as good as Trog. Yredelemnul, while both more versatile and more powerful than Lugonu, is more piety-intensive than Trog without matching his power at least until midgame, where an army of undead will generally do more at than the occasional times you do berserk; using allies with Yredelemnul doesn't cost piety then either. A lot of what makes a god good is his early-game power since that is the stage that is actually hard even if you play flawlessly.

Regarding starting gear: a +2 chosen weapon is nice, but Berserk gives you 1.5 times your attack speed, the small increase in damage due to STR increase (for axes and maces, at least), and an extremely useful 1d10 extra damage per hit, in addition to a considerable increase in HP. Which one is more valuable, especially in a part of the game where berserking dangerous enemies is usually a no-brainer (berserk questions: 1) does it blink? 2) is there any even worse stuff around? 3) do I have less than half HP?), is obvious.

In conclusion: the last thing Berserkers need is a buff.

you should also force all the different knight zealot backgrounds to begin with a specific weapon type that fits their god's profile.

Trog's a barbarian god of violence and war, and (from a gameplay point of view) of weapons. The others (Lugonu: the Abyss, Yredelemnul: necromanctic invocations, Xom: chaos) don't care about specific weapon types or which weapons their followers use. Plus, for reasons stated above, Berserkers really don't need an early game that's even easier, while AK and CK especially have little power until *** or a lucky god gift respectively, so they need a fitting and +2 weapon to compensate.
Regarding -1 or -2 weapons: I'm not aware of a problem with the current Berserker situation, but if there was one this wouldn't be the way to go since Berserk would still trivialise the game till you get a better weapon (generally on D:1 or D:2).

Just like weapon choice was removed for Fi, Gl, AK, CK, DK, Sk, and Wr, and not added for Hu and AM several versions ago?

While that was increased, Conjurers lost their secondary choice screen, ditto Wizards and Priests, Chaos Knights lost their tertiary choice screen.

[TehDruid]

@cerebovssquire

I wasn't aware that berserk grants an extra d10 damage in addition to the haste effect and the bonus STR... This changes things. First of all, when I suggested having -1 or -2 starting weapons for zerkers, I assumed they would be allowed the weapon choice. That's why I thought to even things out if weapon choice seems too powerful, by lowering starting gear damage (in a somewhat flavorful manner, too)... But again, I wasn't aware of the extra d10 damage of berserk, which trivializes the idea, pretty much.

Don't get me wrong. I know exactly how powerful berserkers are, in terms of gameplay. I do appreciate the occasional 0, +8 quickblade or whathaveyou, after all. In the early game, whey will come out on top in most of the runs you'll have, when compared to AKs and DKs, all I'm saying is that zerkers might be able to handle a lot with their trademark ability, yet remember that it's a demanding and risky activity in many cases. You can't use it if hungry or worse, which is a relatively frequently occurring situation for non Hill Orcs/Kobolds/Trolls/Ogres/Felids and is an even more corpse & chunk-reliant style of play than AK/DK, forcing you to pick when to consume permafood under certain stressful game situations.

Regarding gods and weapons: I'm sorry but I don't think Trog is the "god of war and/or weapons". As far as I'm concerned, Trog is the "magic-hating god of frenzy (frenzy being the only thing that you mentioned as "violence") ". His trademarks are the ability to go berserk and mainly anti-magic weapons & the skill Trog's hand. I know he gifts weapons (and only weapons) but he shouldn't be tied with them on such a level. In fact, Okawaru's title of "Warmaster" makes more sense as gear related (including weapons) and (obviously) war related... On another note, in case you're not aware of this; In D&D, every god has a weapon that's tied to them in some way, even the ones connected to pure spellcasting. Yes, I know, this isn't D&D, it's a game of its own, and a great one at that. I'm not saying gods SHOULD get weapons associated with them but seeing as TSO has a thing for Long Blades, I wouldn't say it's too far off to assume Trog likes Axes... I'm just looking for a way as to how Berserkers should be treated; The way I see it, there's three choices: You either all get axes for flavour's sake, or a weapon depending on the best species apt (favoring axes in stead of m&f, etc. if tied), OR allow weapon choice as a last resort (since it apparently is incredibly OP of a way to go). People will raise their favourite/most efficient weapon skill no matter what, I just find it annoying that some races (namely, Ogres) enjoy the benefit of a +3 starting weapon apt, while Kobolds begin with a mace. To not name worse offenders, like Merfolk...

The thing that annoys me is that you are saying that Berserkers are incredibly OP in the early game (which would be fine by me, but then you even proceeded to praise them in mid and late game with BiA obviously owning very hard, but forgot to mention the low success of the ability and the chance to get a shitty brother for a hefty amount of piety, probably leaving you brother-less for quite a while... And I'd assume that you think zerkers not having a weapon choice is the way to keep them nerfed enough to not need further nerfing? If you indeed are of this opinion, then I'd suggest that the devs change it so you get a weapon choice but berserk becomes available at a later piety level (say *** instead of * and bump trog's hand to * from **), since berserk is SO early-game breaking and can't compare to AK/DK divine abilities. 'Cause, isn't balance what they are striving for? Why should Berserkers have the easiest time out of all melee-focused zealots reaching Lair and on top of that be equally competent countering the mid and late game? Doesn't sound so balanced to me. Unless of course things must remain the way they currently are, meaning:

Pure Casters > Hybrids > Berserkers > Other Melee Builds

Of course I realize that none of this matters when it comes to personal skill in the game/race-background combo. Oh, and the RNG. Don't you dare forget the RNG.

P.S: I'm sorry If my post seems offensive to you or the devs in any way. I really don't mean to be arguing over stuff like this. Yes, I might have posted some stuff that's off due to some ignorance on my part. I'm not perfectly informed about the game, yet I stand by many of my points.

[Kate]

What's wrong with kobolds getting a mace, anyway? They have a 0 apt in it which is just fine, and building up to a demon whip is probably just as good as going short to long blades, if not better.

I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to starting Mf with a spear and the other short-bladey races with short swords, though, since having those races just drop their axe on D:2 and swap weapon types doesn't really add much.

[TehDruid]

What's wrong with kobolds getting a mace, anyway? They have a 0 apt in it which is just fine, and building up to a demon whip is probably just as good as going short to long blades, if not better.

Nothing is wrong, you can always play m&f, especially if you get an early whip of venom/lightning.

I just don't see why they get a mace instead of an axe.

You say "it's because they have better apts for it and it's the current philosophy".

But... Oh wait! Then this means that you should force trolls to start with a mace for starters, since they have a better apt in m&f than in axes, right?

That's not the case. As if trolls don't already enjoy ridiculously great UC damage anyway, they begin with full levels of UC skill as berserkers! They even get the choice to play unarmed in all instances where a weapon choice is available, even though (for example) an unarmed troll fighter is just a troll monk without the stealth (and the ** piety on first god in 0.10) but with better offenses/defenses in the form of a starting shield.

I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to starting Mf with a spear and the other short-bladey races with short swords, though, since having those races just drop their axe on D:2 and swap weapon types doesn't really add much.

That's what I'm trying to say. It doesn't add much.

[TehDruid]

Pure Casters > Hybrids > Berserkers > Other Melee Builds

This is simply wrong.

It's just my opinion, to which I'm sure many are opposed while some may consider it to be sane as a statement. To each their own.

[ElectricAlbatross]

Just like weapon choice was removed for Fi, Gl, AK, CK, DK, Sk, and Wr, and not added for Hu and AM several versions ago?

While that was increased, Conjurers lost their secondary choice screen, ditto Wizards and Priests, Chaos Knights lost their tertiary choice screen.

I know that. Almost all melee builds and ranged builds still do have their weapon choice screen, however, so that's not a point in favor of disallowing Be weapon selection like jpeg has suggested.

I really don't think letting Be choose starting weapon would be a buff to berserkers, or even much of a change to gameplay; you end up finding a better weapon soon anyway, especially with second-tier weapon spawn rates being boosted at lower levels, and any difference in weapon skills is quickly negated due to apts, crosstraining, and cheap early skill levels. Which is why, from a gameplay perspective, I'm not really adamant about the issue one way or another; it's just that letting Be choose a starting weapon (or just start with the weapon of their highest aptitude, even) would make for a Crawl that had a bit less tedium and made a bit more sense than before, which is never a bad thing.

Then again, why should all Merfolk be shoehorned into the polearm direction? (Though I admit I always pick spears as Merfolk starting weapon myself.)

MfBe starting with a polearm wouldn't be what shoehorns merfolk into the polearm direction; that would be their +4 polearms aptitude.

[TehDruid]

To inform people that want to play Be, in case you have been sticking with 0.9, now there's another reason to play 0.10!

Taken from crawl_changelog.txt in trunk build 1594: (the file is located in you crawl folder, in the sub-folder docs, just in case)

  Code:

Make Berserkers start with a slightly more species-appropriate weapon
Starting everyone with an axe just results in most races dropping it
immediately for a spear or short sword as appropriate - it doesn't
really add much other than mild annoyance on D:1. Kobolds deliberately
get a mace over a short sword with this change, since that's a case
where either sticking with the mace or swapping to short/long blades
are both reasonable things to do.

Well, what do you know?!

[cerebovssquire]

Regarding balance: it's not only very hard to achieve total balance between all characters, but even partial balance is a very weird design goal in a single-player game.
For example, if I would be playing some MMORPG, I'd want player-versus-player combat to be fair and balanced. In Crawl, it only means that newbies will have a harder time, especially if Berserkers aren't pre-Lair aa-tab-tab-monsters, and it means that experienced players don't have challenges that they enjoy as much. It's also detrimental to replayability value.

Yes, I think Berserkers don't need a buff and that even more power would be too much. But we shouldn't pull them down to AK/DK/and especially CK (early game) power.

It's just my opinion, to which I'm sure many are opposed while some may consider it to be sane as a statement. To each their own.

This applies to subjective matters, but strength of a character is everything but subjective. Not only can an Okawaru melee build be superior to a Berserker later on due to gear differences, ditto an Elyvilon melee build because of virtual immortality, there are also many situations where it's preferable to use a physical combat option instead of casting spells, with regards to noise, mana spent, food costs etc.
Even leaving chances out of the argument (though seriously, Fi of Okawaru will almost always have better armour than Be), it's wrong.
Also, effectively hybridising a character doesn't mean much more than "invest 12/14/14 points in Maces/Long Blades/Polearms", which is a lot of return for very little investment. There's literally no race and no caster that would have a problem raising one of these skills to said levels over the course of a (three-rune or allruned) game.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't play pure casters, if you enjoy them go ahead. Only that you shouldn't say it's optimal or subjectively optimal, because it isn't.

[pratamawirya]

Yeah, fighter-mage is beast, even if it's a MD.

[TehDruid]

@cerebovssquire

When I say hybrids I mean Fighter-Mage.
When I say "other melee" I mean all melee that uses Inv and Evo ONLY or does pure melee.

Of course everything is situational, but it's a common belief that magic is pretty OP in contrast to other options. Because it provides flexibility and survivalability to hybrids and can dish incredible damage...

[KoboldLord]

While I don't disagree that magic is overwhelmingly powerful, we do have hard statistical data from online play showing that Trog is overwhelmingly powerful too. Berserkers are one of the strongest starting roles at every level of play, regardless of whether we're talking about relative newbies or tournament streakers. We can argue about the reasons and the specifics, but any power rating that doesn't put berserkers near the top of the hierarchy is clearly and demonstrably incorrect.

[cerebovssquire]

When I say hybrids I mean Fighter-Mage.
When I say "other melee" I mean all melee that uses Inv and Evo ONLY or does pure melee.

Of course everything is situational, but it's a common belief that magic is pretty OP in contrast to other options. Because it provides flexibility and survivalability to hybrids and can dish incredible damage...

That's exactly what I meant too (well, I'd say berserkers and "other melee" could have physical ranged options... crossbows/slings/bows/throwing).
Are you really saying a pure mage is more flexible than a hybrid? It's in the name that a hybrid combines the two character types meaning more flexibility.
Investing into a weapon skill, generally by 12-14 levels if you want a demon weapon, or more for Axes and UC, provides a lot of flexibility and won't decrease your magical abilities. I can provide you quite a few character dumps of some (more or less) successful hybrids of mine; as you will see, nearly all have some form of strong magical and/or physical offense and spell skills that offer support and flexibility, for instance Charms and Translocations. Unlike pure casters, they wouldn't be screwed when silenced, when confronted with situations where they'd need to kill some enemies physically to save MP, etc., and can just generally perform well in more types of fights than a pure caster.

If you can give me good examples for where my skill points should have been invested in a certain magical skill instead of melee for some of these characters, I'll happily believe this thing about pure casters being superior. I seriously doubt this, though.

http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/E ... 134601.txt (DrCj)
http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/E ... 165927.txt (MuAK)
http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/E ... 191500.txt (HEWn)
http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/E ... 193212.txt (HuEE)

[TehDruid]

That's exactly what I meant too (well, I'd say berserkers and "other melee" could have physical ranged options... crossbows/slings/bows/throwing).
Are you really saying a pure mage is more flexible than a hybrid? It's in the name that a hybrid combines the two character types meaning more flexibility.

Where exactly did you get that I ("really" as you state) say that a pure mage is more flexible than a hybrid? I said that magic offers many empowering and escape options for melee that want to hybridize, but I didn't proceed to say whether hybrids are less flexible than pure casters, or not. Don't put words in my mouth...

...Which means, that I don't disagree with you saying hybrids are more versatile, obviously. Being able to handle some sticky situations related to silence mostly (namely, Mennas and the odd silent spectre in the Abyss or the endgame or even the possibility of any monster using an anti-magic weapon, If there's a chance) naturally is a good thing. And that's where hybridizing really shines. Although you can still relatively safely overpower Mennas and anything that can potentially lock you down through silence with high level summons, as a pure caster... Of course it requires some hindsight most of the times to not get into deadly situations which you can't escape, whereas as hybrid could probably come out even unscratched.

So now that this is out of the way, what I'm saying is that while hybrids can be much, much more flexible in almost all situations, in terms of raw power, pure mages are bound to be better but most importantly, get there much faster than the drop-reliant melee-ers who also might hope for a good gift by their god to get going (granted, Trog is going to give you some amazing damage dealing weapon at some point around Lair probably, and that's one of the very strong points of going for Trog)...

...Unless of course you're talking about the type of hybrids that mostly do their damage with heavy magic nukes and not melee, but still invest in a weapon skill for the slight chance they may need to stop frying stuff with their spells. It's just that when I say hybrids, I have the Skald and Transmuter backgrounds in my head, that use auxiliary magic to become more capable at killing things in a physical manner. Not saying that a hybrid focused in magic damage is not a hybrid in its own right, I just prefer to view it the way that comes more natural to me, which is; physical character learning magic like haste/ozocubu's armour/statue form etc. to support their melee killing power.

The option to use ranged weaponry is available for any kind of character, except (obviously) for pure casters, and pure melee. I should have mentioned it, since it seems to not be a given to you.

Also, (flying this by, just in case) training Fighting/Dodging/Armour/Shields as a pure mage isn't hybridizing to me, since you are merely getting better at surviving so that you can keep nuking your foes (without weapons or unarmed combat). But you could probably do without them, I assume, If you are going for a pure hardcore glass cannon caster situation.

Well, since -according to you- this subject goes beyond personal opinion, I'll just accept the fact that all role types are equal in power, and get this over with. Let us not derail the topic any further, this is about Berserkers and we ended up having a stupid argument about my personal thoughts on individual character power.

Anyway, the devs decide what's really OP and what's just pointless player whining, in the end and I'm sure you know that. Currently, in trunk, Merfolks get polearms when they start out as Berserkers and Elves get short blades, as do Halflings, too. Kobolds still start out with maces. We'll see how it works out from here. Enjoy the new, slightly more convenient Berserkers, everybody.

Some feedback on the actual change: Well, playing some MfBes today I noticed that getting these 4.x levels to kickstart polearms isn't a particularly game changing thing. It might be a buff, as some people said, but it's extremely subtle, since the XP needed to get to skill level 4 in polearms as a Merfolk (especially with Axes and Polearms crosstraining) is hilariously small. So, as mentioned above:

I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to starting Mf with a spear and the other short-bladey races with short swords, though, since having those races just drop their axe on D:2 and swap weapon types doesn't really add much.

I stand by this point, which is all I should have just said, anyway.