Secret Doors

[njvack]

OK -- with all of the Traps discussion (which I see both sides of), secret doors are mentioned only in passing. I don't see both sides of secret doors, except that they give Traps & Doors a little more utility.

Whatever the trap reform looks like, is there a case I'm not seeing in favor of secret doors?

[dpeg]

Secret doors are a problematic case. They're not mentioned (at least by me) for a reason: while it is conceivable to make quick trap detection relevant (see "spawn traps" in the trap wiki), this is almost impossible for secret doors. (Timed portal vault entries and actual portal vaults can pull it off.)
What would be possible is to allow just a single check for each secret door, when you're near it for the first time. I mentioned this idea for traps once, but never for secret doors. (Obviously, this would only work for secret doors protecting loot, not for secret doors to the Temple.) Another idea is to have small closets whose contents disappear, so you have to find them quick.

[Galefury]

Another idea is to remove secret doors. They are spoilery and rarely serve a purpose.

[ekolis]

I don't like the "one chance only" concept - that means you're actually better off avoiding places that might have secret doors until you've trained your traps & doors skill up high enough to have a better chance of finding the doors! Of course, this might be irrelevant if you can't so easily avoid secret doors, but it still seems bizarre to me that if you fail at finding something with low skill, that you can never come back later and find it once your skill is increased!

[dpeg]

Were I not in charge, I'd probably also campaign for the abolition of secret doors. Strangely, things become less clear when on the other side of the fence.

[Regnix]

Secret doors can be great, one vault in particular springs to mind, I found a secret door, which led to a room full of stone giants and other nasties. The monsters inside then started opening the other secret doors, which were pretty much the entire walls of the room. It was a good ambush.

[KoboldLord]

Random secret doors don't have any particular reason to exist, but as far as I'm concerned designed vaults are fine. There are vault-designing tools available to minimize the spoiler issue, and each and every one of them is intentionally placed in the vault for a reason. If there's a problematic vault, it should be dealt with in the design phase, or the vault should be eliminated. If we simply got rid of each feature that could possibly be a problem if used poorly, there would be no features left at all.

[njvack]

Secret doors can be great, one vault in particular springs to mind, I found a secret door, which led to a room full of stone giants and other nasties. The monsters inside then started opening the other secret doors, which were pretty much the entire walls of the room. It was a good ambush.

Here's the "case I hadn't thought of"

It strikes me that if secret doors are intended as tools for monsters to surprise you in vaults, it might be reasonable for players to just not be able to detect them at all.

As far as doors hiding loot, I'm ambivalent. I never find secret doors now unless it's something like the Temple entry vault. Maybe there are secret doors hiding loot already?

[jejorda2]

Playing a deep dwarf leads to lots of loot behind doors that I wouldn't have found otherwise.

[rchandra]

random secret doors can lead do autoexplore nuisances - where it is clear to me the player that there is a door (a lot of dead-end corridors/T-junctions are like that), but my character didn't see it so I need to interrupt him, move him back, and '5'earch.
vault secret doors can be pretty spoilery. memorizing the premade elements of a roguelike should not be a useful skill.

[Zzz]

Well for the whole "Wait to explore new area til you get tnd skill" line of thought there's Lair. Supposedly dug out by boring beetles. If you wanna rack up some tnd, that's when you make the choice, since there aren't(shouldn't) be doors in there.

Also one time only secret door check with closets littering the levels is a decent buff to magic mapping, which is of marginal use save a few specific situations.
But I think magic maps don't show hidden areas right? That's inconsistent. Magic does anything. It's Magic.

[ElectricAlbatross]

Also one time only secret door check with closets littering the levels is a decent buff to magic mapping, which is of marginal use save a few specific situations.
But I think magic maps don't show hidden areas right? That's inconsistent. Magic does anything. It's Magic.

Magic mapping used to do that, but that ability was specifically removed in 0.8 or 0.9 for reasons that I can't remember.

[XuaXua]

Apparently Magic Mapping has been revised to reveal secret doors but not what is beyond them if possible.

[ElectricAlbatross]

Oh, that's kinda cool.

[JasonMel]

I'm not a high-powered player with multiple victories and years of playing, but I like secret doors. Please don't remove them from the game.

[XuaXua]

I recently posted this bug about how LRD doesn't seem to work on undetected secret doors (it should treat them like regular doors and blow them up entirely immediately, as has been my experience) and suddenly every responder comes in to shit on secret doors.

[danr]

I see some merit in the idea that random secret doors should be abolished. If you find one, it should mean you've found something interesting, even if it's just a nest of rats. Or just a long corridor to the other side of the map. But a secret door between two big empty rooms that have multiple other access points just seems like the result of a random dungeon generator, the kind of thing you might see in a much more primitive roguelike.

On the other hand though, I don't think something important like the Temple should be hidden by secret doors. Players shouldn't have to exhaustively search multiple floors of the dungeon to find a crucial game element. That's kind of boring.

That said, the random doors don't really bug me.

[mageykun]

...what's with reviving year old threads?

That said, the random doors don't really bug me.

Nothing bugs me more than walking by a lone 1 by 1 piece of wall orphaned in the lair, only to have it reveal itself as a secret door. A secret door to where? It's not a secret door- it's a column you can fold inside itself in such a way to make it disapear!

Random secret doors should only be placed in such a way that they open connectivity between areas. Secret doors in pillars, or that open to empty stone walls, are just silly.

[XuaXua]

...what's with reviving year old threads?

That said, the random doors don't really bug me.

Nothing bugs me more than walking by a lone 1 by 1 piece of wall orphaned in the lair, only to have it reveal itself as a secret door. A secret door to where? It's not a secret door- it's a column you can fold inside itself in such a way to make it disapear!

Random secret doors should only be placed in such a way that they open connectivity between areas. Secret doors in pillars, or that open to empty stone walls, are just silly.

That's as simple (I suspect) as eliminating or reducing procedural secret door generation in Lair. I tend to view those as part of lair having once been a civilization, now ruins.

[dd]

Random secret doors should only be placed in such a way that they open connectivity between areas. Secret doors in pillars, or that open to empty stone walls, are just silly.

I agree, and same goes for regular doors as well.

In fact, if you dig the walls from around a door, the door should just collapse because there's nothing for the door to be attached to.

[jejorda2]

Random secret doors should only be placed in such a way that they open connectivity between areas. Secret doors in pillars, or that open to empty stone walls, are just silly.

I agree, and same goes for regular doors as well.

In fact, if you dig the walls from around a door, the door should just collapse because there's nothing for the door to be attached to.

When we were discussing using a bow to shoot someone that is in an adjacent square, someone suggested that the squares are larger than an individual, and so there is enough space there to shoot. In the same way, the square marked as "door" can include the door frame and perhaps a bit of surrounding wall.

I enjoy the theme of isolated doors. They only rarely add to gameplay, but I'm not sure they hurt anything enough to be worth the trouble of removing.

[mumra]

When we were discussing using a bow to shoot someone that is in an adjacent square, someone suggested that the squares are larger than an individual, and so there is enough space there to shoot. In the same way, the square marked as "door" can include the door frame and perhaps a bit of surrounding wall.

Yeah, that was me. A lot of things make a lot more sense when you think of the dungeon map as being purely symbolic rather than literal and to-scale.

[JasonMel]

...what's with reviving year old threads?

I noticed the report that XuaXua mentioned above, and noticed people posting things like "+1 for abolishing secret doors". I decided, rather than continue the argument in a relatively obscure issue report in Mantis, to voice my opinion where others could more easily see and respond. At the same time, I didn't want to come across as some kind of vigilante trying to highlight the issue report in order to form a nuisance, off-topic dogpile there (which I would discourage), which is why I didn't link to the report or explain the necro. Furthermore, I figured that even without any cross-posting, the people there would see this discussion. My preference is to continue the debate in the context of what's been discussed before; if starting another thread on secret doors was the thing to do, I apologize.

[njvack]

I think reviving the old thread was the right choice. It keeps ye olde historye at the forefronte.

[XuaXua]

which is why I didn't link to the report or explain the necro. Furthermore, I figured that even without any cross-posting, the people there would see this discussion.

I linked it because it's topical and because I'm the one who made that bug report. And technically, LRD not affecting undetected secret doors is a bug, and the discussion of secret door existence there is completely irrelevant. You'll notice I don't respond to the +1 Kill Secret Doars! responders there either.

And reviving this thread was the right thing to do.

[mageykun]

I was more wondering how a thread that had been gathering dust so long attracted attention than voicing opposition to or recrimination for necromancy. Your explanation is logical and sensible, and my curiosity is assuaged.

In fact, if you dig the walls from around a door, the door should just collapse because there's nothing for the door to be attached to.

When we were discussing using a bow to shoot someone that is in an adjacent square, someone suggested that the squares are larger than an individual, and so there is enough space there to shoot. In the same way, the square marked as "door" can include the door frame and perhaps a bit of surrounding wall.

I have no real mechanical objection towards the possible construction of an arch or arbor like door that stands free of additional walls (...although an arbor that allowed travel along all 4 cardinal axes, instead of just the one would look pretty ridiculous and present an interesting engineering challenge. As would the be mechanism by which from any direction you could close access from all angles). It's just the frustrating pointlessness of it that offends my sensibilities.

Regular doors that open to dead ends are somewhat unavoidable- it's going to happen when we have vault placement interacting with door laden level styles.

[galehar]

back on topic, I definitely agree that random secret doors serve no purpose and are sometimes problematic. I agree with their removal. However, secret doors in vaults could work, if the detection mechanism were different.
When generated, they get a hidden property which is the minimum T&D needed to reveal it. Vault can specify a range and/or it depends on depth. Behind secret doors, you'll usually find loot. Never mandatory, but useful.
I'd also add some randomisation to it, so that you' likely to find it after 3 turns, and almost certain after 6. Just so they are not immediately revealed when entering LOS. The mechanism could be used for traps and mimics btw.

[bobross419]

@galehar, are you saying that if the hidden property is 11 and your T&D is 10 that you will never find it?

Also, loot should always be mandatory

[Galefury]

I like galehar's idea. Not sure I like it better than removing T&D, though. Also, this wiki page is probably relevant to this discussion.

[XuaXua]

I'm reading galehar's secret door detection formula as

("T&D skill" * "time spent in close proximity" - "secrecy factor of door") <= 0, door is detected.

Where "secrecy factor of door" is probably some combination of values based on
"wall material" + "depth" + "vault-specific modifier" + "branch" + "small random fudge factor"

[Galefury]

Your formula makes zero sense. Why not just say whatever it is you want to say with words?

[galehar]

@galehar, are you saying that if the hidden property is 11 and your T&D is 10 that you will never find it?

Yes

[danr]

It just occurs to me - if secret doors were much rarer, and only non-random, then when you found one, it would be genuinely exciting because you knew it meant something and it wasn't just a meaningless random dungeon feature. So I think this would be a great improvement flavour-wise.

The trick is, if you are virtually guaranteed to find it just by being in its presence for a while with some level of T&D skill, then it's not so much a secret door as it is a time-release door. So I think secret doors should ideally require you to explicitly search the area - but all of LOS should be searched at once, I hated in Nethack having to search at each 3 sections of wall (does DCSS have the whole LOS searched at once or is proximity a factor?)

But then, you can't expect players to be constantly explicitly searching. It would be up to vault designers to put in clues that players can watch out for.

[jejorda2]

What if we assumed that doors are hidden with some kind of forced perspective illusions, such that standing in specific places makes it very difficult to see the door, but standing in other places in sight of the door makes it easy to detect?

In the diagram below, perhaps your effective T&D skill would be multiplied by the number in the spot where you are standing. The important thing is that it's easier to spot when you aren't looking at it dead-on. Another door might be easier to spot from some other angle or distance.

  Code:

#22221111
#22911111
#22111111
+11111111
#22111111
#22911111
#22211111
#11111111


Maybe when your T&D is between 75% and 100% of the value needed to find the door, you get a message that something is funny about the area, but you only get it once per door and it happens 1d4 turns after you hit the check. Then you know to move around and look for the door or come back when your T&D is higher.

[nicolae]

What if we assumed that doors are hidden with some kind of forced perspective illusions, such that standing in specific places makes it very difficult to see the door, but standing in other places in sight of the door makes it easy to detect?

In the diagram below, perhaps your effective T&D skill would be multiplied by the number in the spot where you are standing. The important thing is that it's easier to spot when you aren't looking at it dead-on. Another door might be easier to spot from some other angle or distance.

  Code:

#22221111
#22911111
#22111111
+11111111
#22111111
#22911111
#22211111
#11111111


Maybe when your T&D is between 75% and 100% of the value needed to find the door, you get a message that something is funny about the area, but you only get it once per door and it happens 1d4 turns after you hit the check. Then you know to move around and look for the door or come back when your T&D is higher.

That sounds like a really over-complicated solution.

[evilmike]

back on topic, I definitely agree that random secret doors serve no purpose and are sometimes problematic. I agree with their removal. However, secret doors in vaults could work, if the detection mechanism were different.
When generated, they get a hidden property which is the minimum T&D needed to reveal it. Vault can specify a range and/or it depends on depth. Behind secret doors, you'll usually find loot. Never mandatory, but useful.
I'd also add some randomisation to it, so that you' likely to find it after 3 turns, and almost certain after 6. Just so they are not immediately revealed when entering LOS. The mechanism could be used for traps and mimics btw.

I think secret doors would be even more problematic this way.

If you came across a vault where you know there's a secret door (the vault telegraphs its location) and can't reveal it, then you will need to make a note and come back after you train some more T&D. Possibly several times, until you reach the required skill.

With this change, I'd suggest removing secret doors from *every* vault, except for those which use secret doors as shortcuts (zot:5 is an example). And they're hardly ever used for this, so what's the point?


So, I don't really think it's worth trying to fix secret doors. Either keep them in their problematic state, or remove them completely (and heavily edit several vaults that rely on them).

I would also suggest adding a "runed door" feature if secret doors are removed. Runed doors would have the following properties:

1. Different colour from normal doors (maybe yellow), different tile, different description (alluding to something dangerous being behind it)
2. Stops explore when it comes into view, does not get opened by autoexplore.
3. Otherwise behaves normally (no prompt for opening... this part is important)

Most of this is (sorta) doable in vaults already, but it would be better to have it as a real dungeon feature, for consistency reasons. Also because a lot of vaults could use something like this (which would mean a lot of boilerplate). It could even use the current "=" glyph, which is currently used for secret doors.

My reason for this suggestion is that secret doors are sometimes used to make the player stop for a moment, often when something dangerous is lurking ahead. They are a way of making the player pause and think, and also of warning them. Regular doors fail at this because of autoexplore. Doors with prompts for opening fail at this because they're super-annoying, and provide too much of an interruption. There are other techniques that can currently be used (statues can be made to stop autoexplore, you can put monsters behind glass, etc) but these methods are awkward to use in most cases, and sometimes ugly.

This new feature would first be used where current "secret doors as warnings" are used. Later it could be extended to be used as entry points of various dangerous vaults (anything that can be deemed an "autoexplore trap").

[crate]

The only way the "secret T&D threshold" for secret doors works at all is if the doors are always in stone/metal/permarock. Otherwise they remain spoilery since you read the .des files to find where the door is and then dig/disintegrate it (in fact this is worse than the current situation, where at least if you are led to suspect a secret door you will eventually find it if you try to search). I would rather just see them eliminated altogether.

[galehar]

With this change, I'd suggest removing secret doors from *every* vault, except for those which use secret doors as shortcuts (zot:5 is an example). And they're hardly ever used for this, so what's the point?

Forgot to mention it, but yeah, the new design would need to be used completely differently than the old one. Now, secret doors are not really secret. If too well hidden, they become spoilery and we add hints so players know they have to search for it. With the new design, they would need to be really hidden, so spoiled players can't recognise them and come back after training T&D.
For example, they could simply hide a 3x3 loot room, with no hint. But then I guess some crazy players will start digging everywhere searching for loot. Remove dig, and they'll LRD the place
Yeah, maybe just remove secret doors

I would also suggest adding a "runed door" feature if secret doors are removed.

I really like this idea.

[KoboldLord]

Removing explicit secret doors will only encourage vault designers to get roughly the same functionality by connecting a pressure plate trap to a .lua function that converts a wall tile into an open space tile. Or they could link the .lua function to moving a junk item, or killing a specific monster, or walking along every tile of the wall to be affected. I would not classify this as an improvement. I'd rather lump all of these into a generic mashing of 5 than have dozens of vaults that each have a completely unique pixel***** element that I have to memorize.

[Kate]

Well uh, presumably vaults of that description wouldn't be accepted if they were just trying to recreate unwanted gameplay mechanics. Seems like not a problem.

[KoboldLord]

All right, so we'll move the goalposts over slightly. Where exactly does the line that defines secret door-ness go? Is any vault with a temporarily-inaccessible or missable item in it unacceptable? How about those that are blocked off by transparent walls? How about those that are accessible only by doubling back from the stair below? Does the Ancient Champion vault have to go, because the doors are affected by the deaths of the monsters inside? If not, how does this vault significantly differ from one that opens up when you kill a perma-feared unseen horror that races away whenever it sees you? How about that one vault that pops open all the mummy chambers when you try to steal the big loot? There's some minor loot in those mummy chambers, so maybe that's pretty close to being a secret door. The Door Vault is scary and therefore cool when you're playing and you suddenly realize what's about to happen, and that uses secret doors very explicitly. There's some ossuary maps where the player is chased by guardian mummies, which probably aren't going to be beatable by most characters. The loot is harder to get because you have to lure them to a safe distance before you can search for the secret door that you figure must be there, and then you have to get out safely too.

There are a lot of features in Crawl that aren't really needed, per se, but are interesting when used right. Take out all potentially-useful features that are troublesome if used wrong, and your ultimate version of Crawl basically boils down to a turn-based rail shooter, where there's nothing that you can interact with that isn't a big sack of hp that you can deplete to zero. I couldn't be bothered to play such a Crawl.

I have no beef with the hypothetical removal of random secret doors, or the removal of vaults that are terrible regardless of whether or not they have secret doors. I don't want to see good secret door vaults removed, however, if the only reason for removal is the fact that the concept of secret doors offends somebody's Platonic Ideal of Nonspoileriness.

[danr]

I'm liking this idea of runed doors.

Other interesting things could be done with doors, like maybe trapping them. Immolation, for that specially warm welcome, perhaps?

[danr]

Or how about a "Blink" door. Like a teleport trap, except it causes a random blink instead of a teleport.

Or doors that work like a Passage of Golubria, only they're permanent.

[evilmike]

Where exactly does the line that defines secret door-ness go?

A secret door is a secret door. "DNGN_SECRET_DOOR" in the code. There is no need to involve metaphysics here.

I don't want to see good secret door vaults removed, however, if the only reason for removal is the fact that the concept of secret doors offends somebody's Platonic Ideal of Nonspoileriness.

wtf

[XuaXua]

I'm reading galehar's secret door detection formula as

("T&D skill" * "time spent in close proximity" - "secrecy factor of door") <= 0, door is detected.

Where "secrecy factor of door" is probably some combination of values based on
"wall material" + "depth" + "vault-specific modifier" + "branch" + "small random fudge factor"

Your formula makes zero sense. Why not just say whatever it is you want to say with words?

I'll revise it below as follows

There is an attempt-to-detect value equal to
Traps and Doors Skill (80-90% of the value)
and
Some factor of Intelligence and/or Dexterity (20-10% of the value)

which is compared every turn to any secret door in line of sight as follows:

a resistance value (a "Secrecy Factor" if you will) that each secret door has (proverbial "hit points"), which equals some combination of:
* the wall material used to create the door (stone might be harder to detect than... steel; green crystal secret doors are super tough to detect, etc.)
* current dungeon depth (akin to trap damage, right?) : deeper you are, harder to find secret doors
* a vault-specific modifier : if they wish, programmers of .des vault maps can specify a factor that may make certain doors easier or tougher to find (multiply secret door A by 0.75 and secret door B by 5.00)
* a branch-specific modifier : secret doors are easier to find in Lair than in Slime, or whatever; completely optional to implement
* a small random fudge factor : a small value so that all secret doors in a single area are not automatically found simultaneously.
penalized by
some increasing factor based on time the player has spent within proximity of the secret door "not acting" (moving or resting)
* 1 turn in line of sight adds + 0.10
* 1 turn at 1-2 spaces away adds + 0.25
* 1 turn adjacent (corner) adds +0.50
* 1 turn adjacent (perpendicular) adds +1.0


If the flat attempt-to-detect value is greater than or equal to the increasingly penalized resistance value, then the secret door is detected (no random rolling involved).

This means, given time spent within proximity, you will eventually find the secret door, and you'll find them a heck of a lot faster if you have T&D skill.

[The Mantis]

This is silly. Secret doors are nice and fun. I play the early game a lot, and ossuaries use them marvelleously, as does the sewer entry with the hidden door. There's a feeling of worry as you seek the door for the vault. There should be no real trend of minimalism or feature creep.

[pubby]

How about semi-secret doors like in Zelda?



It gives you the same feeling of discovery, but lacks the spoiler issues.

Although I don't think it would be appropriate for every situation.

[dd]

How about levers or floor buttons you can use to activate secret doors? They could be generated on the other side of the dungeon, and then you'd have the fun of finding where the secret door opened.

This would also allow creating all kinds of fun mini-puzzles on vaults.

[Galefury]

Having to run back and forth to press switches, then find the door they opened generally doesn't work very well. Also, some walls already do something like this, for example the ancient champions vault.