Melee vs Ranged

[dpeg]

I don't think purity is a design goal.

[KoboldLord]

A melee fighter using ranged combat isn't really a melee fighter anymore...

If a 0%-ranged build is viable, then we have a degenerate situation that needs to be fixed. Very few people try to play a Magic Dart specialist who tries to complete the entire game with one single tool, refusing to diversify even the slightest bit. If such a person does crop up, I see no reason to accommodate them.

[dpeg]

Also it is not as if meleeists have only ranged combat as a tool. Apart from divine help (which offers a number of options), there is Evocations and spells. Hopefully the combat moves will broaden the range even more.

[thenewflesh]

A melee fighter using ranged combat isn't really a melee fighter anymore...

If a 0%-ranged build is viable, then we have a degenerate situation that needs to be fixed. Very few people try to play a Magic Dart specialist who tries to complete the entire game with one single tool, refusing to diversify even the slightest bit. If such a person does crop up, I see no reason to accommodate them.

What magic darts have to do with it? Nobody proposes that game should be winnable with mace or hand axe.

Conjurations-focused builds are more then capable of winning the game. I got my first 2 runes as DECj of Vehumet, even without knowing a rat about the build. just going with spells that sound cool Then I've found I really dislike the playstyle and prefer fighters, even though they're laughably weak in comparison.

[bobross419]

0% ranged build viable = degenerate situation
100% ranged build viable = ?

[thenewflesh]

0% ranged build viable = degenerate situation
100% ranged build viable = ?

I think it's viable with crossbows. Beginning is pretty tough, but by the time I hit vaults:8 I had like 500+ bolts not counting runed ones. Unfortunately, I splatted the character before enchanting and putting them to serious use...

Not sure about bows, but I don't think they're viable post midgame in the first place. But if you're trying javeliner or slinger, you're out of luck (and ammo). It also limits your god selection to two.

Perhaps adding javeliners and some hobbits with slings as regular enemies might help?

Okay, this is going off topic, fast. I'm sorry. Maybe, discussing current state and future of ranged characters deserve its own topic?

[KoboldLord]

0% ranged build viable = degenerate situation
100% ranged build viable = ?

Casters may be overpowered in general, but you can't reasonably argue that they aren't versatile and interesting. A build that repeats one simple task from D1 to Z5 is a problem to be corrected whether it's strong or weak.

[snow]

My mdfi didn't use any ranged attacks. If an enemy ran I didn't chase it unless I could corner it... melee characters don't need as many skills as casters so the extra experience isn't needed. Running enemies are annoying in that you have to explore manually until they're out of sight. They also make the game easier... often an enemy that can easily kill you will flee.

[betamin]

Also it is not as if meleeists have only ranged combat as a tool. Apart from divine help (which offers a number of options), there is Evocations and spells. Hopefully the combat moves will broaden the range even more.

Wasn't there an Evocation buff being made? That + combat moves should balance melee/spellcasters a lot.

[Thasero]

Well, using Magic Dart throughout the entire game isn't the most accurate comparison. As a spellcaster, you have skills that determine your power in spellcasting, and over the course of the game you upgrade from weak, easy spells to stronger spells that require a larger investment to use effectively. On the other hand, as a melee character you have skills that determine your power in melee, and over the course of the game you upgrade from weak, easy weapons to stronger weapons that require a larger investment to use effectively.

So a spellcaster who wins the game using only Magic Dart is like a melee character who wins the game using only their starting +0, +0 short sword. That's not actually how it works if you run a 100% melee character, so I think we're OK right now. I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing if you can win the game using only melee or only ranged, although it would make me suspect there's a hole where a challenging monster or branch should be; for any focused character build, there should be at least one really scary challenge that makes you want to either diversify a bit or run away and hide under your bed.

As far as the viability of pure ranged (non-magic) characters, I'd agree that crossbow can be done; I posted a DrMo winner two weeks ago that used mainly a crossbow and had plenty of well-enchanted ammunition. It's likely that a really pure ranged character would have difficulty with crowd control, but they also wouldn't have split experience across a bunch of other skills and would presumably pick a race with a positive aptitude for ranged combat, so it would probably even out somewhat compared to my experience. Bow is probably also possible. It might be possible to go with slings if you worship Okawaru/Trog and are sufficiently lucky with ammo gifts, although I haven't tried and can't judge. Throwing seems likes the worst candidate for regular use. You can sometimes get a ludicrous stack of weapons of returning by raiding a bailey, but those don't actually deal much damage. Darts are very weak, javelins are very rare, and large rocks take a high investment in Throwing skill in order to be effective later on.

I would tend to favor design which encourages players to use both melee and ranged, just because it gives players something to think about - namely, when do I switch? You also need to evaluate and carry two sets of weapons. I ended up carrying three different crossbows on my Draconian for different targets, and if I'd been using a weapon skill for melee rather than unarmed combat, I might have carried two melee weapons as well (flaming sword for hydras, different sword for everything else, and so on). Evaluating equipment is an important part of strategic play for melee/ranged characters, and switching on the fly can be an important part of tactical play. Encouraging players to have both melee and ranged increases the chance that players participate in those decisions as much as possible.

[thenewflesh]

Throwing can be semi-viable in trunk with Okawaru and Trog gifting javelins and large rocks.

However, ammo mulching is still a problem. Even if gifting would fix the problem which doesn't seem to be the case at this point, then primary ranged characters (I'm not talking about pure ranged: that's just not going to work out) basically can chose any deity as long as it's Okawaru or Trog, especially Okawaru since Hero works on ranged, helps with spreading skills between ranged and melee weapons and fits somewhat cautious ranged playstyle and later Finesse turns you into a machine gun with meat grinder attached . Fedhas might be interesting, too, but, again, all that cool abilities that synergize well with ranged playstyle are useless without ammo.

Also, melee in crawl, I agree with minmay, is about using tactics to compensate for the lack of tools. Yeah, some of these tactics are cheap (not nearly as cheap as "cast cloud spell, run away, lather, rinse, repeat", though) and some of them are tedious and unfun, but the fact that you're using your strength as a player to compensate for the lack of powers your character has, is fun in itself.

[Danei]

0% ranged build viable = degenerate situation
100% ranged build viable = ?

I don't think there's such thing as a 100% ranged build, because spells and ranged attacks can be used in melee.

[bobross419]

Just because you are throwing a firebolt or shooting an arrow 1 square doesn't make it less of a ranged attack.

[Danei]

Just because you are throwing a firebolt or shooting an arrow 1 square doesn't make it less of a ranged attack.

Well, it sort of does. It makes it an attack that is both ranged and melee. My point was that "100% melee build" and "100% ranged build" aren't really analogous in Crawl. It's perfectly okay for the devs to consider 100% melee builds degenerate, while 100% ranged builds are not.

[snow]

It's entirely possible to win with only melee... febe is an example of this. Ranged on the other hand... I keep running out of ammo. The mulch rate on ammo should be much lower than it is now....

[minstrel]

It's entirely possible to win with only melee... febe is an example of this. Ranged on the other hand... I keep running out of ammo. The mulch rate on ammo should be much lower than it is now....

QFT. I've had wins with all ranged types but throwers and there's no way to use ranged weapons as primary damage dealers until the late game and Okawaru/Trog are required choices early on for gift ammo to conserve +0 arrows/bolts for enchantment. Sling bullets are too scarce even so, unless you get a lucky pile of steel, since you don't have anything dropping them reliably like elves/centaurs/yaktaurs. Also the ammo enchantment metagame requires spoilers.

Note: I'm not suggesting 100% ranged should be viable from the start, but that primary damage from ranged should be, in the same way it is with melee or spells.