Does anyone really use Makhleb's greater destruction?

[Moose]

I've played several makhlebites, and even won a couple times with them. He's a terrific god; lot's of fun to play.

However, there's that one ability (Greater Destruction) that I just cant seem to find a use for. I've tried it a few times, and it seems just as often as it hits something, it also misses. Not to mention that there's always a chance that it will fire an elemental blast of a type that your target is immune, or at least resistant to.

That's fine and all, but that ability comes with a hefty (enough) piety cost. It can take several invocations of GD to take out a dangerous foe, and in doing so you will have sapped a good chunk of your hard-earned piety. _OR_ ... you could have just summoned a greater demon to dispose of your target (and probably many many others) and saved yourself the turns, random chances, and piety.

Does anyone else kind of feel that GD is useless as it is, or am I just grousing over nothing?

If my sentiments are shared, what would people think about removing the piety cost all together on it, but increase the mana and food cost to compensate?

[ryak]

Well, for starters, Greater demon has a chance to turn out hostile. But thinking back to when i have played with Makhleb, I don't even really have a good idea what the piety cost of greater destruction is, probably because I didn't use it particularly often. In most situations you would want to use it, its probably ideal to use lesser destruction or one of the demons instead.

[Moose]

Greater Destruction is generally considered useless. I assume the reason it hasn't been buffed is that Makhleb is already very powerful.

I would agree with all of this. If that is a consensus (not saying it is yet), then might it make sense to remove the ability?

[lucy_ferre]

I assume the only reason why Makhleb's 'destruction' abilities exist is to justify calling him a "chaotic" evil god. There's nothing really chaotic about him (he's a blood god who only cares about bloodshed) except for those semi-random abilities. Minor destruction is useful for training invocations. Greater destruction is pretty worthless.

[danr]

I like the idea of reducing piety cost but increasing food / MP cost. I might use it more then, depending on my food situation. It can do really massive damage, but you have to use it carefully.

[szanth]

I'd consider it useful and actually use it if it didn't have a piety cost at all, but was balanced out by having, say, a 4 or 5 MP cost.

[acvar]

I have used it vs hydras occasionally when wielding a vampiric ax and low on health. I didn't want to switch weapons, Summoning a possible hostile demon was dangerous at low health levels, and the hydra was far off and unlikely to resist. But mostly it is useless.

[danr]

Yeah, the piety cost is the killer. Due to the unreliable nature you need to use it a few times before you get something appropriate, and that is a major drain on the piety that is necessary for the much more useful Greater Servant.

[evilmike]

I've used it a few times in the midgame, when I'm too weak (or too unprepared) to handle a misfired Greater Servant, and none of the powerful monsters have resists yet. Even then, the ability hardly gets any use since it's usually not much better than a wand of fire or cold. It's cool when you get orb of electricity though.

Later on, most tough monsters are able to resist something, which makes major destruction too unreliable for its cost.

[Stormfox]

Given how many times I've blown myself up with a fireball or an electric orb, vs. the number of times a hostile greater servant has ruined my day, I'd take my chances with Greater Servant. I only use Major Destruction in circumstances like evilmike mentioned.

[danr]

Major destruction can be nice if you see a band of yaks or orcs in the distance. But again, I'm not sure if the piety cost is worth it.

I agree though, Makhleb is pretty powerful anyway, so improving it in anyway (even nerfing it but reducing the cost so it would get used more) is probably not on.

[lucy_ferre]

Why was this thread moved to the advice section?

[danr]

Why was this thread moved to the advice section?

No idea. It wasn't me.

[chrysalis]

Maybe the destructions could be randomly weighted towards an element that your target is not resistant to? Or have a cool ability attached to them like if you destroy something with the spell it has no/less piety cost (perhaps imbalanced). Other than that, yeah I agree Makleb is already pretty damned powerful.

[danr]

Rather than "fixing" it or removing it, perhaps it should just be replaced with some other chaotic ability, like shuffling the contents of a room around or something.

[Waywinkle]

The ability to summon a cloud of seething chaos could be fun.

[jackalKnight]

I think it would be cool if Mahkleb granted you some sort of "demon" related resist (one level of rFire or rLife would be nice) instead of Greater Destruction. Having it kick in at a certain piety level would actually force players to consider conserving their piety and not mindlessly spamming Lesser/Greater Demon for fear of losing the resist.

[danr]

Another thing that might help (but make it less chaotic) would be if like a Tome of Destruction you would be told what kind of destruction you are about to unleash, which would at least help you decide where to target it.

I would support changes to piety cost.

BTW, is there a place to find out the piety cost of different invocations? Piety costs are too opaque to the player IMO.

[danr]

I'm moving this back to the game design forum. Sorry to whoever moved it here...

[galehar]

Another thing that might help (but make it less chaotic) would be if like a Tome of Destruction you would be told what kind of destruction you are about to unleash, which would at least help you decide where to target it.

I would support changes to piety cost.

BTW, is there a place to find out the piety cost of different invocations? Piety costs are too opaque to the player IMO.

It has been added to the ability description in trunk.

[chrysalis]

Going slightly off topic, but does anybody else think that Makhleb and Vehumet are too similar? They both seem very vanilla to me. I think if they had more distinct characteristics and quirks as gods, then more fun flavorful god abilities would come naturally.

[szanth]

O_o Not at all. Vehumet's all about offensive magic, whereas Makhleb is almost strictly demonic in power and chaotic in personality. Think of it, like, Vehumet's the guy who really enjoys the colosseum, and Makhleb is a serial killer.

[danr]

Also, one is for spellcasters and the other is for, well, anyone I guess. Trog and Okawaru, now there are some pretty similar gods (but still with meaningful differences).

[Danei]

Vehumet is the caster god for conjurers and summoners, and Makhleb is the god for people who want to conjure and summon without investing in the related magic skills.

Similarly, Kikubaaqudgha is the god for necromancers, and Yredelemnul is the god for people who want necromancy-like abilities without investing in Necromancy skill.

Makhleb also happens to be the god for anyone who wants HP for kills, though.

[jackalKnight]

Which also happens to make Mahkleb better than any other god for races with health regain problems (Vampires, DD).
For a god of "pure chaos and violence", Mahkleb is awfully versatile.

Certainly much more than, say Kiku (I want ALL the necro stuff) or Vehu (I need the best conjurations magic) or even Trog (I'm gonna get my character through the rough early game at the risk of having a somewhat tougher endgame. No god puts the player "on rails" less than Mahkleb, and the lackluster Greater Destruction is the only real drawback. I do like the idea of making it a no-piety move, just MP/hunger for cost.

[Robsoie]

I played many time mummy Chaos Knight of Makhleb, and i can't remember a single time in which i used Greater/Major Destruction, not because it's too random in how many time it hit (until you have a high invocation), but simply because it is costing piety.
When people play with Maklheb, more likely is that they will prefer to reach the point in which they can cast Greater Servants, losing lots of piety in using the greater/major destruction power does not make much sense then as it will prevent you to reach the faith rank required for Greater Servant.

A removal of the piety cost, replaced by something else (more magic points/food required ?) would make that power much more interesting, enticing then the player to actually use it.