Dj Spell Rework


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Mines Malingerer

Posts: 40

Joined: Thursday, 1st May 2014, 20:49

Post Monday, 3rd January 2022, 07:29

Dj Spell Rework

Hi there folks-

I've been away from Crawl for a while, and I've recently had a go at some newer versions. I've been really enjoying Dj, but I think it's got a problem with the spell selection dice-rolling.

I've talked to multiple Dj players online, and I've heard from more than one that optimal play is to give a character a go for an hour, see if any good spells show up, and if not then re-start. You've only wasted an hour!

Dj has such a small number of chances to gain spells with long-lasting implications, and I think they need a little more flexibility and character building as opposed to a completely random character.

On that note, here is my proposal:

Every 3 levels, instead of choosing a stat level increase, a Dj should be able to re-learn a spell slot.

You could make it neo-Acquuirement style. For example:

- Select a spell (let's call it Blink for an example, as it's one of the first ones you can learn as a Dj.)

- You get a list of other spells that you could have learned in place of Blink (like Apportation) and have the option to replace Blink with that spell.

- This would apply to each spell at it's level, so you get a chance to re-roll a slot from other spells you might hand landed at the time you learned the original spell.

This would allow a degree of control over Dj characters that end up with absolutely garbage spell loadouts which can't carry them in to the game, without removing the randomness of the character. You still gamble on each slot and you can only pick a few times to try and switch it up, but that's probably worth it on characters that don't have spells to carry them deep in to the dungeon and not incentivize them to just restart.

I hope this makes sense, let me know what you think of it. Thanks!
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Crypt Cleanser

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Joined: Monday, 24th April 2017, 11:46

Post Monday, 3rd January 2022, 10:56

Re: Dj Spell Rework

There is no connection whatsoever between optimal play and re-start. By re-starting each game that doesn't go as you expect, you lose. You pile a big load of manure over your win-rate. That says it all.
Maɟaŋ

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andrew

Zot Zealot

Posts: 1004

Joined: Thursday, 16th August 2018, 21:19

Post Monday, 3rd January 2022, 13:36

Re: Dj Spell Rework

For the early spells, only a few such as Blink, Regeneration and Apportation are actually useful in the late game.
And you have pretty decent control over those early spells, with your choice of background you can guarantee getting at least 1 useful lategame spell.

I actually think the late game spells are a much more significant 'problem'. I've had a game where I got Blade Hands, Storm Form, Dragon Form and other useless stuff (to my Int-maximising shield-wearing Djinn) before I finally got a decent kill-dude. Comparing with Ds, I don't think the randomness of Djinn spell libraries is particularly significant.
The biggest problem I have with Djinn myself is the way a small number of backgrounds can provide a very significant late game advantage.

Anyway, I would be neutral towards this proposal.

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1131

Joined: Tuesday, 4th January 2011, 15:03

Post Monday, 3rd January 2022, 15:43

Re: Dj Spell Rework

Allowing changing the spells weakens the unique aspect of djinni. And there's no need to make djinni even more stronger by allowing it to optimize the spell set: a djinni with "bad" spells is still strong.

Most spells are useful for every build. The only exception from this is the form spells, because (except perhaps statue form) they are only useful with UC. Given that if you do NOT get form spells then UC is pretty bad, thats about the only case which is really annoying with a djinni.

Maybe simply djinns should never get form spells (unable to cast them). But I do not think it is a big deal anyway.

My favorite solution would be to create a lore around every djinni has access to exactly one form spell. I think that could be thematic. Altough we would need to do something with transmuters who start with two.

Slime Squisher

Posts: 392

Joined: Sunday, 11th September 2016, 17:21

Post Wednesday, 5th January 2022, 04:09

Re: Dj Spell Rework

Djinn are a bad species to pick for casting any spells aside from what their background provides. Even with rerolls and/or acquirement-style spell acquisition, that would still be the case. They get hit 3 times: lack of ability to memorize desired spells, lack of ability to worship magic-related gods, and lack of ability to invest in spell competence through multiple skills. Really, all they're good for is gimmicky builds like a warper of Makleb with lots of Regen+ that can spam Manifold Assault endlessly. While the proposed change wouldn't really fix them as a spellcasting species, getting spells acquire-style might make them more strategically interesting to play, but only if the contribution to spell competency they receive from Spellcasting were increased... otherwise there's just no point. I think the rerolling part of the proposal would be too clunky to work well, however, under any circumstances.

Zot Zealot

Posts: 1004

Joined: Thursday, 16th August 2018, 21:19

Post Wednesday, 5th January 2022, 16:30

Re: Dj Spell Rework

sanka wrote:Most spells are useful for every build.

Hailstorm at XL 11?

Looking through the list of spells that exist I'll grant you that most spells aren't always useless, but in my experience only about half the spells a Djinn gets are actually useful.

Nekoatl wrote:Djinn are a bad species to pick for casting any spells aside from what their background provides. Even with rerolls and/or acquirement-style spell acquisition, that would still be the case. They get hit 3 times: lack of ability to memorize desired spells, lack of ability to worship magic-related gods, and lack of ability to invest in spell competence through multiple skills. Really, all they're good for is gimmicky builds like a warper of Makleb with lots of Regen+ that can spam Manifold Assault endlessly. While the proposed change wouldn't really fix them as a spellcasting species, getting spells acquire-style might make them more strategically interesting to play, but only if the contribution to spell competency they receive from Spellcasting were increased... otherwise there's just no point. I think the rerolling part of the proposal would be too clunky to work well, however, under any circumstances.

Djinn Conjurer^Mahkleb is also incredible. If you get to XL27 you're pretty much guaranteed to get a good level 9 spell that you can spam pretty much forever. With good spell power to boot.

And I've heard Djinn^Ash is also rather viable.
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Crypt Cleanser

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Joined: Monday, 24th April 2017, 11:46

Post Wednesday, 5th January 2022, 16:38

Re: Dj Spell Rework

What's wrong with hailstorm? It is actually quite powerful, particularly if you have it together with IMB, which you will when you start out as a conjurer.
Maɟaŋ

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1131

Joined: Tuesday, 4th January 2011, 15:03

Post Wednesday, 5th January 2022, 16:47

Re: Dj Spell Rework

petercordia wrote:
sanka wrote:Most spells are useful for every build.

Hailstorm at XL 11?

Looking through the list of spells that exist I'll grant you that most spells aren't always useless, but in my experience only about half the spells a Djinn gets are actually useful.


I guess I meant "Most spells are roughly *equally* useful for every build.". I thought this is clear from the context, sorry for expressing myself badly. There are weak spells, but that's just the power level of your particular Djinni, which I do not think needs a boost. Hailstorm is fine though. I wanted to point out that form spells are not in this category: they are very strong if you have UC, but not very strong otherwise.

Zot Zealot

Posts: 1004

Joined: Thursday, 16th August 2018, 21:19

Post Wednesday, 5th January 2022, 19:02

Re: Dj Spell Rework

Apportation, Blink, Animate Dead, Borgnjor's Vile Clutch, Cause Fear, Iskenderun's Mystic Blast, Passage of Golubria, Passwall, Swiftness, are all spells of level 5 or less that have significant late-game utility for most characters.

Leda's Liquefaction, Animate Armour, Spectral Weapon, Lesser Beckoning, Manifold Assault, Confusing Touch, Petrify, Portal Projectile, Yara's Violent Unravelling, Wereblood, are all spells of level 5 or less that have significant late-game utility for some characters.

Any direct damage spell of spell level 5 or less is a disappointment for almost any Djinn. (Djinn VM and DjNe being the exceptions I can think of right now.)

Slime Squisher

Posts: 392

Joined: Sunday, 11th September 2016, 17:21

Post Thursday, 6th January 2022, 01:31

Re: Dj Spell Rework

I was mistaken about the spell competence limit. Based on previous testing, I determined that djinn couldn't reach the same levels of spell power as other species, but retesting it now, this is not the case. Spell power for a djinn with spellcasting 27 is the same as spell power for other species with spellcasting 27 and schools 27. My apologies.

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Majang

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